Navy Yard Shootings

Navy Yard Shootings

Postby version sound » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:38 pm

Guns :bag:
Last edited by version sound on Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby pedro » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:40 pm

13 people died.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby version sound » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:42 pm

pedro wrote:13 people died.


Yeah, but one was the shooter. I didn't count him because he isn't a victim.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby pedro » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:59 pm

From what I have read so far, it sounds like "the shooter" might indeed be a victim. It's still very early and I will try to find more information before I pass judgement.

But regardless, Aaron Alexis is indeed a person who died at the Navy Yard today. There is no debating that fact. He has (at least) a father and friends who are devastated right now and that is undeniable. I guess wether or not his actions and death rise to the level that one should "count him" as a "victim" or not is up to each of us.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby version sound » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:45 pm

I don't know anything about him. The reason I didn't include him is that as a fatality he doesn't belong in the equation about whether or not lives could have been saved if every civilian was packing heat. I guess there's a scenario in which a merciful sharp shooting cowboy takes him down without Killing him, but the more citizens with guns, the less likely that would happen.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby SamDBL » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:02 pm

No one knows what the outcome could've been if the scenario were different. I'm not interested in arguing about it too much. But one problem I find with your logic is that three minutes during a rampage killing spree on unarmed victims might as well be three weeks in terms of the damage that can be inflicted.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby version sound » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:06 am

SamDBL wrote:...three minutes during a rampage killing spree on unarmed victims might as well be three weeks in terms of the damage that can be inflicted.


Great point. I'm not sure I've heard a better argument against the availability of assault weapons.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby yourenotevil » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:17 am

version sound wrote:
SamDBL wrote:...three minutes during a rampage killing spree on unarmed victims might as well be three weeks in terms of the damage that can be inflicted.


Great point. I'm not sure I've heard a better argument against the availability of assault weapons.



i always love hearing this bullshit argument. it's more like a gun nut's wet dream to one day think they can play out some dirty harry type fantasy in real life. "get me in that room and i would be the difference maker." right, you would probably end up killing more innocent people. name me one public shooting in the history of time where an armed citizen was the sole equalizer is one of these situations. police and armed forces are trained for moving target training, where your typical weekend warrior gun range shooter is not. more often than not, these killers are trained by the armed forces or have some type of military or police background, are using ar-15 assault rifles and are wearing body armor. even in the best case scenario, a well trained citizen would have a handgun with 14 or 15 bullets and have to find some kind of cover and then get off a shot on a moving target that was shooting back at him. the logistics of that definitely favor the killer.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby kel » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:33 pm

yourenotevil wrote:name me one public shooting in the history of time where an armed citizen was the sole equalizer is one of these situations.



I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion that shootouts in a crowd are dangerous, I agree that the initiator of an attack has a huge advantage, but per your request for a few examples of where shootings are stopped by armed individuals:



– Mayan Palace Theater, San Antonio, Texas, just this December: Jesus Manuel Garcia shoots at a movie theater, a police car and bystanders from the nearby China Garden restaurant; as he enters the movie theater, guns blazing, an armed off-duty cop shoots Garcia four times, stopping the attack. Total dead: Zero.

– Winnemucca, Nev., 2008: Ernesto Villagomez opens fire in a crowded restaurant; concealed carry permit-holder shoots him dead. Total dead: Two. (I’m excluding the shooters’ deaths in these examples.)

– Appalachian School of Law, 2002: Crazed immigrant shoots the dean and a professor, then begins shooting students; as he goes for more ammunition, two armed students point their guns at him, allowing a third to tackle him. Total dead: Three.

– Santee, Calif., 2001: Student begins shooting his classmates — as well as the “trained campus supervisor”; an off-duty cop who happened to be bringing his daughter to school that day points his gun at the shooter, holding him until more police arrive. Total dead: Two.

– Pearl High School, Mississippi, 1997: After shooting several people at his high school, student heads for the junior high school; assistant principal Joel Myrick retrieves a .45 pistol from his car and points it at the gunman’s head, ending the murder spree. Total dead: Two.

– Edinboro, Pa., 1998: A student shoots up a junior high school dance being held at a restaurant; restaurant owner pulls out his shotgun and stops the gunman. Total dead: One.


The hard part of answering your request is always going to be "if a good guy with a gun stopped a bad guy with a gun, how would we know how much damage the bad guy would have done if he wouldn't have been stopped by a law-abiding gun-carrier?" It's impossible to prove intent after the fact, unless the perpetrator left a manifesto, told someone he was off to blow up the office, etc., in advance.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby version sound » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:43 pm

How come I never heard about any of those incidents? As long as people are going to have guns, it's good to know this actually has happened. Maybe if we closed all the loopholes so only sane law-abiding citizens could buy guns, this crazy gun culture wouldn't be too bad.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby yourenotevil » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:56 pm

version sound wrote:How come I never heard about any of those incidents? As long as people are going to have guns, it's good to know this actually has happened. Maybe if we closed all the loopholes so only sane law-abiding citizens could buy guns, this crazy gun culture wouldn't be too bad.



yeah, i agree. while those incidents are definitely the proof i was looking for, several involve police, not citizens. after the colorado shootings, every gun nut was claiming if they were in that room, they could have shot the guy and saved lives. i highly doubt that. this navy yard guy had two previous instances of being abusive with a gun(shooting out a man's tires) and had told police he heard voices and it seems clear he was schizophrenic or had some kind of severe mental disorder. the RI cops even told the navy this, and they didn't do anything about it. the guy should have been committed right away. yet, he could still go out and buy a shotgun 3 days before this killing. that seems to be the bigger issue here. i guess some people want a world where everyone could carry a gun at all times, and i think that is kind of extreme and some kind of longing for a romanticized version of the old west that never existed.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby kel » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:24 pm

yourenotevil wrote:...while those incidents are definitely the proof i was looking for, several involve police, not citizens...





***I don't see any difference between an off-duty cop and a citizen. I happen to have a badge (I'm a reserve officer with a small department that asks for my help sometimes), but 99% of the time when I'm just having dinner out or shopping with my wife or kids, I'm just a guy who's responsible for my family's personal safety, and not representing any government organization.

In that role, I have a concealed carry permit, have been background-checked as any other individual would be. As a pro-freedom-semi-libertarian kinda guy, I do NOT like the idea of some citizens being more equal than others, Animal Farm and all that. I do not agree with those that say "only police should have guns" - I don't trust the police or any other government nanny to make personal decisions for me. As a dagboard-related aside it sure doesn't seem very "punk" to start putting all faith and blind trust in the President, Police, Congress, or other establishment, or being quick to give up up personal rights in exchange for the hope that the government will take good care of us however they decide is right for you. You're starting to see what that story looks like with all the recent NSA cellphone/email privacy abuses. "Don't worry about your rights: we're the government, we know what's good for you and work for the safety of everyone as a whole."

I heard a line once that really hit this one home: "I saw a movie once where only the police and military had guns. It was called "Schindler's List". :)


In the case of the above examples, they were just armed citizens acting outside of their jobs. Like many cops, they could have just taken off their handgun at the end of the shift and chosen to go unprotected in their non-work hours. It's by far more comfortable to not carry. As an aside, really, the only point I actually *did* kinda disagree with you in your earlier post is that you said police train more/more for these situations than normal-joe citizen shooting enthusiasts. Most police training is pretty cursory. A lot of cops aren't training-junkies, and most departments don't have unlimited funds for training expenses. It's just one more heavy tool on the belt they are proficient with to meet a minimum required standard - I mean, just because they have a radio doesn't mean they are expert HAM radio operators... it's just a tool they're issued and have some basic training with. People that do this because they *like* it practice a lot more than your average patrolman might do. Competitive recreational matches often have a separate class for the law enforcement competitors because the match organizers know that cops would feel embarrassed if good "civilian" enthusiasts constantly out-scored them.



yourenotevil wrote:this navy yard guy had two previous instances of being abusive with a gun(shooting out a man's tires) and had told police he heard voices and it seems clear he was schizophrenic or had some kind of severe mental disorder. the RI cops even told the navy this, and they didn't do anything about it. the guy should have been committed right away. yet, he could still go out and buy a shotgun 3 days before this killing. that seems to be the bigger issue here.



***Absolutely. Random mass killings of strangers (using any method) aren't normal -- Serial killers hatcheting up kids and storing them in the freezer, bombers blowing up buildings full of random people, mall shooters, etc... Sane people aren't wired to do that. That is a totally different issue than gang kids in Chicago killing each other over dope money. Different problem with different causes.

How to identify ill people and care for them is the right dialogue to explore.




Edit to add: I found it weird why his previous arrests didn't stop him from getting a job in a secure area as a contractor... you'd think he *would* be background checked to get the gig he had and that stuff would show up.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby SamDBL » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:33 am

version sound wrote:
SamDBL wrote:...three minutes during a rampage killing spree on unarmed victims might as well be three weeks in terms of the damage that can be inflicted.


Great point. I'm not sure I've heard a better argument against the availability of assault weapons.


I wasn't making an argument in and of itself, smartass. I'm simply saying that you suggesting that police arriving at a scene three minutes after a shooter began taking unarmed people out is the exact same as the shooter facing someone that was armed from the outset is foolish and self-serving.
You have some weird stereotype cooked up that people that own guns see themselves as John Wayne vigilante sharpshooters, or something. I have no idea what would've happened if one of the victims had had a gun on them at the time the shooting began and neither do you. I can only assume that if you were trapped in a building with a violent criminal gunning your coworkers down that you'd be better off if you yourself were armed and responsible. But then again I don't have a problem admitting that most gun owners are responsible like you seem to.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby SamDBL » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:38 am

yourenotevil wrote:
version sound wrote:
SamDBL wrote:...three minutes during a rampage killing spree on unarmed victims might as well be three weeks in terms of the damage that can be inflicted.


Great point. I'm not sure I've heard a better argument against the availability of assault weapons.



i always love hearing this bullshit argument. it's more like a gun nut's wet dream to one day think they can play out some dirty harry type fantasy in real life. "get me in that room and i would be the difference maker." right, you would probably end up killing more innocent people. name me one public shooting in the history of time where an armed citizen was the sole equalizer is one of these situations. police and armed forces are trained for moving target training, where your typical weekend warrior gun range shooter is not. more often than not, these killers are trained by the armed forces or have some type of military or police background, are using ar-15 assault rifles and are wearing body armor. even in the best case scenario, a well trained citizen would have a handgun with 14 or 15 bullets and have to find some kind of cover and then get off a shot on a moving target that was shooting back at him. the logistics of that definitely favor the killer.


Here we go again. Every person that has a gun thinks they're Dirty Harry. What a ridiculous, straw man argument. I also really like your logic that a civilian gun owner will probably just lose in a shootout against some armed psycho anyway, so they may as well just accept their death without any defense whatsoever. At least they won't own a gun.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby SamDBL » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:41 am

yourenotevil wrote:after the colorado shootings, every gun nut was claiming if they were in that room, they could have shot the guy and saved lives.


Define 'gun nut'. Is that like a paramilitary wannabe, NRA redneck? Or just every single person that owns a gun.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby yourenotevil » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:13 am

SamDBL wrote:
yourenotevil wrote:
version sound wrote:
SamDBL wrote:...three minutes during a rampage killing spree on unarmed victims might as well be three weeks in terms of the damage that can be inflicted.


Great point. I'm not sure I've heard a better argument against the availability of assault weapons.



i always love hearing this bullshit argument. it's more like a gun nut's wet dream to one day think they can play out some dirty harry type fantasy in real life. "get me in that room and i would be the difference maker." right, you would probably end up killing more innocent people. name me one public shooting in the history of time where an armed citizen was the sole equalizer is one of these situations. police and armed forces are trained for moving target training, where your typical weekend warrior gun range shooter is not. more often than not, these killers are trained by the armed forces or have some type of military or police background, are using ar-15 assault rifles and are wearing body armor. even in the best case scenario, a well trained citizen would have a handgun with 14 or 15 bullets and have to find some kind of cover and then get off a shot on a moving target that was shooting back at him. the logistics of that definitely favor the killer.


Here we go again. Every person that has a gun thinks they're Dirty Harry. What a ridiculous, straw man argument. I also really like your logic that a civilian gun owner will probably just lose in a shootout against some armed psycho anyway, so they may as well just accept their death without any defense whatsoever. At least they won't own a gun.


when i hear the "if i had a conceal carry this would have not have happened," it tends to be from a guy who has an abnormal amount of guns who thinks he is the shit. guys like ted nugent fit that profile pretty well, or guys saying all teachers should be armed at all times, etc. i do believe in guns rights and don't think all gun owners are rednecks, but people with a hard on for carry/conceal in all places at all times tend to be pretty ignorant about this shit. every see that video of that guy walking around in the streets(i think it was portland, maine) with a gun in a holster in broad daylight? he just waited for a cop to come up to him and read him the riot act about how he was able to carry a gun and of course filmed it and put it on youtube. those are mostly the kind of fucking losers who are the conceal/carry types.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby yourenotevil » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:17 am

kel wrote:
yourenotevil wrote:...while those incidents are definitely the proof i was looking for, several involve police, not citizens...





***I don't see any difference between an off-duty cop and a citizen. I happen to have a badge (I'm a reserve officer with a small department that asks for my help sometimes), but 99% of the time when I'm just having dinner out or shopping with my wife or kids, I'm just a guy who's responsible for my family's personal safety, and not representing any government organization.

In that role, I have a concealed carry permit, have been background-checked as any other individual would be. As a pro-freedom-semi-libertarian kinda guy, I do NOT like the idea of some citizens being more equal than others, Animal Farm and all that. I do not agree with those that say "only police should have guns" - I don't trust the police or any other government nanny to make personal decisions for me. As a dagboard-related aside it sure doesn't seem very "punk" to start putting all faith and blind trust in the President, Police, Congress, or other establishment, or being quick to give up up personal rights in exchange for the hope that the government will take good care of us however they decide is right for you. You're starting to see what that story looks like with all the recent NSA cellphone/email privacy abuses. "Don't worry about your rights: we're the government, we know what's good for you and work for the safety of everyone as a whole."

I heard a line once that really hit this one home: "I saw a movie once where only the police and military had guns. It was called "Schindler's List". :)


In the case of the above examples, they were just armed citizens acting outside of their jobs. Like many cops, they could have just taken off their handgun at the end of the shift and chosen to go unprotected in their non-work hours. It's by far more comfortable to not carry. As an aside, really, the only point I actually *did* kinda disagree with you in your earlier post is that you said police train more/more for these situations than normal-joe citizen shooting enthusiasts. Most police training is pretty cursory. A lot of cops aren't training-junkies, and most departments don't have unlimited funds for training expenses. It's just one more heavy tool on the belt they are proficient with to meet a minimum required standard - I mean, just because they have a radio doesn't mean they are expert HAM radio operators... it's just a tool they're issued and have some basic training with. People that do this because they *like* it practice a lot more than your average patrolman might do. Competitive recreational matches often have a separate class for the law enforcement competitors because the match organizers know that cops would feel embarrassed if good "civilian" enthusiasts constantly out-scored them.



yourenotevil wrote:this navy yard guy had two previous instances of being abusive with a gun(shooting out a man's tires) and had told police he heard voices and it seems clear he was schizophrenic or had some kind of severe mental disorder. the RI cops even told the navy this, and they didn't do anything about it. the guy should have been committed right away. yet, he could still go out and buy a shotgun 3 days before this killing. that seems to be the bigger issue here.



***Absolutely. Random mass killings of strangers (using any method) aren't normal -- Serial killers hatcheting up kids and storing them in the freezer, bombers blowing up buildings full of random people, mall shooters, etc... Sane people aren't wired to do that. That is a totally different issue than gang kids in Chicago killing each other over dope money. Different problem with different causes.

How to identify ill people and care for them is the right dialogue to explore.




Edit to add: I found it weird why his previous arrests didn't stop him from getting a job in a secure area as a contractor... you'd think he *would* be background checked to get the gig he had and that stuff would show up.


i don't trust the gov't either, but i don't have that much faith in the general population either. i would rather have certain people be allowed to be armed in public than have EVERY person have a gun on them. that creates a climate of fear worse than anything a government could do. do you really want a george zimmerman case every couple of weeks? if everyone had a gun in public, people would be getting blown away a lot more. zimmerman was a wannabe cop who couldn't fight with his fists so he carried around a gun to finish what he knew he couldn't finish. what if every barfight, mugging, robbery ended with civilians deciding who to shoot? it would be chaos.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby version sound » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:37 am

SamDBL wrote:
version sound wrote:
SamDBL wrote:...three minutes during a rampage killing spree on unarmed victims might as well be three weeks in terms of the damage that can be inflicted.


Great point. I'm not sure I've heard a better argument against the availability of assault weapons.


I wasn't making an argument in and of itself, smartass. I'm simply saying that you suggesting that police arriving at a scene three minutes after a shooter began taking unarmed people out is the exact same as the shooter facing someone that was armed from the outset is foolish and self-serving.
You have some weird stereotype cooked up that people that own guns see themselves as John Wayne vigilante sharpshooters, or something.


Not all of them, but at least a vocal minority. After the school shooting at Newton, the NRA's response was "put armed guards in schools". You don't think there were armed guards at Navy Yard? There most definitely were and 12 people were still murdered. My point is that the answer isn't always "MORE GUNS". I theoretically have no problem with responsible people owning guns. My problem is that gun owners, or at least the most vocal ones, resist even the most basic measures for trying to keep guns away from criminals and crazies. WTF is wrong with a national gun registry? If you register your car, why the fuck shouldn't you register a gun? It's ridiculous.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby JGJR » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:06 am

SamDBL wrote:I have no idea what would've happened if one of the victims had had a gun on them at the time the shooting began and neither do you.


Nor does anybody, really, but let me take a wild guess and say that most likely, it would end up with more people being dead or injured and that's what those who advocate more guns in that type of situation don't seem to ever get even though it should be so frickin' obvious. YNE and VS are right.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby gregpolard » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:33 am

Melt the guns.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby NotBaker » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:39 am

gregpolard wrote:Melt the guns.

I think you misunderstand the "guns versus butter" model.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby version sound » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:52 am

I'm really not anti-gun. I have friends who are sane and responsible gun owners. Those people need to find a voice though, because when the crazy paranoid gun nuts are allowed to control the debate, it makes you all look bad.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby gregpolard » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:17 am

NotBaker wrote:
gregpolard wrote:Melt the guns.

I think you misunderstand the "guns versus butter" model.


I was making an XTC reference :)
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby kel » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:09 pm

Ah. When you were asking for some examples of good-guy-citizens-with-guns stopping mass murders, I was thinking of the Clackamas, OR mall shooting but couldn't find that in a quick iPhone google.

Went back and grabbed it - there's a few instances here:


http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/10-potential-mass-shootings-that-were-stopped-by-someone-wit

...but it happens most every week that armed individuals stop crimes, usually just by the presence of an immediate "You don't want to do this - it has consequences" effect on bad guys.

Personally, if there's a person intent on doing me or my family harm, I want access to my own protection - not forced to wait for a three, fifteen, or hour-long response time from police that have the same training as I do.

An observation: There's a lot of really nasty name calling in this thread, painting with way-too-wide brushes. I doubt there will ever be compromises or understanding when the dialogue starts with calling the other side "F*cktard cowboy idiots that are all the same".

Peace,


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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby version sound » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:18 pm

I ammended my first post to be less incendiary. I have no beef with responsible people owning guns, but people who want to regulate birth control more strictly than automatic weapons do my head in.
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Re: Navy Yard Shootings

Postby Michele » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:11 pm

don't know, living in a Country with a strict control on guns and far from the American approach to them, I don't think I can enter the discussion... just, lately I saw some few episodes of a show called American Guns based on a family owning an important guns store somewhere in the USA.
Not a fiction but more one of those series you're used to on Discovery or such, with people entering the shop and buying a lot of guns, rifles and even military stuff and the Whole thing appeared to me like a complete nonsense and quite disturbed me for some reason I can't even explain...
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