Life Of Crime

[SamDBL]

I just caught up with this. That final shot of the funeral home sign was a gut punch like I haven't felt in awhile. You're so ready to see one of them get out alive, and then...

It was like a black comedy at that point. I think there is some back story to this documentary in which this is an updated version, or something. And that the director decided to revisit it only because of her extremely tragic ending.

[SamDBL]

Also, re: the source of the argument determining if the argument is sound... I just had a go around with some guy on FB. He pointed at a headline that claiming Ted Nugent was annoyed that Joan Jett had made some list of top 100 guitarists. Of course the thread consisted of people trashing him for being a right-wing loud mouth, as usual. Assuming it's probably because she's gay/bi and TN is probably homophobic, etc. I stated that, indeed, putting Joan Jett on a list of Top 100 (or even Top 100,000) guitar players was completely ridiculous. Her ability doesn't even rate her within 1,000 miles of such a list, objectively speaking. And she'd probably be the first to admit this. The only counter argument was 'holy shit dude, you agree with Uncle Teddy?!?! FUCK THAT'. That was the entire defense of a barely passable guitarist being included on the list of greatest guitarists of all time. Someone you dislike, politically, says something. And, therefore, the opposite *must* be true. That's where we're at. I mean, I'm pretty sure the Nuge also believes the Earth to be round. So I guess these people are, by default, all flat-earthers.

[JGJR]

Also, re: the source of the argument determining if the argument is sound... I just had a go around with some guy on FB. He pointed at a headline that claiming Ted Nugent was annoyed that Joan Jett had made some list of top 100 guitarists. Of course the thread consisted of people trashing him for being a right-wing loud mouth, as usual. Assuming it's probably because she's gay/bi and TN is probably homophobic, etc. I stated that, indeed, putting Joan Jett on a list of Top 100 (or even Top 100,000) guitar players was completely ridiculous. Her ability doesn't even rate her within 1,000 miles of such a list, objectively speaking. And she'd probably be the first to admit this. The only counter argument was 'holy shit dude, you agree with Uncle Teddy?!?! FUCK THAT'. That was the entire defense of a barely passable guitarist being included on the list of greatest guitarists of all time. Someone you dislike, politically, says something. And, therefore, the opposite *must* be true. That's where we're at. I mean, I'm pretty sure the Nuge also believes the Earth to be round. So I guess these people are, by default, all flat-earthers.

I enjoy Joan Jett's music much more than Uncle Ted's (their views on things aside) and I care little about technical ability in that context, but he's not the only one who made a similar comment about her guitar playing. Let me see if I can find it. It's funny as fuck.

[captain2man]

The article that Nugent was commenting on was a decade old and I'm sure there are many on that list who aren't any more deserving (or not deserving) of being on there than Joan Jett, so it does make you question why Uncle Ted went out of his way to point out Joan Jett (#87 on that list) and not - say - Johnny Ramone who was #16. Was Johnny Ramone really better than Robert Fripp (#42)? Of course not - and I'm sure it's not what David Fricke was implying when he wrote the list. So yeah - it does seem like Ted is taking a decade old article (published December 3, 2010) and misinterpreting the spirit of the list in order to spew "facts" that clearly have a kernel of hatred embedded into it, which, unfortunately, is par for the course with Nugent over the past 20 years or so (and hey - I love those Amboy Dukes and '70s Nuge records as much as anyone).

But let's get the intent of the list clear - from Fricke's introduction: "The original inspiration was a celebration of the guitar and how it changed the world – and me. Everyone has their own version of this list."

And what he writes about Jett specifically: "Lead guitarists gave rock its icons; rhythm players gave it soul. The line runs from Eddie Cochran to Pete Townshend to Johnny Ramone, a lineage in which Joan Jett should not be taken lightly. In the early Runaways and the later Black-hearts, she played it straight ahead: No frills, all heart, no fucking around."

In light of the clear spirit in which Fricke wrote this article and prepared the list, there's nothing out of line with Jett being there.

Nugent is a far-right wing culture warrior - and has been for a very long time. He knows better than to criticize directly - so he does it indirectly - in ways that - on the surface seem "reasonable". He mentions Joan Jett - who isn't even in the top 80% of the list - but is silent about Johnny Ramone and Kurt Cobain, who are both well within the top 20%.

[SamDBL]

I still say she does not belong on a list like that. You don't have to be a virtuoso to be a great instrumentalist. You just have to being something to the table with your imagination. That's how I'd place someone like Johnny Ramone next to Eddie Van Halen. But Joan Jett? C'mon. To even group her with Johnny Ramone or Kurt Cobain is silly. None are spectacular players. But all have an identifiable sound that influenced entire genres. She plays the guitar for her songs adequately. That's it. She is no great guitarist by any stretch. I suppose someone could justify it any way they like. But i think it's silly. She did nothing interesting or innovative with the instrument. There are plenty of lists she could be justified in going on. But not this one. Bob Dylan wrote and sang great songs. I'm not going to put him on a 'greatest 100 singers' list any time soon.
I still have no problem separating the art from the artist. And so the real kick in the ass is that the Nuge totally 100% would/should be on such a list of great and influential rock guitarists. And I'm not even a fan of his music or his persona. Maybe he is on the list, I didn't read. In any case, he's completely qualified to have an educated opinion on this list.

[captain2man]

Nugent himself is not on the list.....but again - it's clear this is a personal list by a well-respected music journalist, not meant to be some collective agreement. Greg Ginn, D. Boon and Robert Quine are all on the list, and I'd have to assume most aggregate "Top 100 Guitar" lists wouldn't have any of those three (but where or where is Curt Kirkwood??).

And - what did Nugent say about Jett's appearance on this list - why - among other things - he said this:

"I love Joan. Some of my greatest memories include lesbians. I love the lesbians; it’s a cocktail of wonderment."

Seriously? It couldn't be clearer that, in the end, while Nugent may correctly say that Jett is undeserving of a "Top 100 Rock Guitarist" list, that when he thinks of her - she's a lesbian before all else. Make all the arguments you want against having her on the list....but why was this particular statement remotely necessary? Why say it if not to demean and marginalize?

[JGJR]

Nugent himself is not on the list.....but again - it's clear this is a personal list by a well-respected music journalist, not meant to be some collective agreement. Greg Ginn, D. Boon and Robert Quine are all on the list, and I'd have to assume most aggregate "Top 100 Guitar" lists wouldn't have any of those three (but where or where is Curt Kirkwood??).

And - what did Nugent say about Jett's appearance on this list - why - among other things - he said this:

"I love Joan. Some of my greatest memories include lesbians. I love the lesbians; it’s a cocktail of wonderment."

Seriously? It couldn't be clearer that, in the end, while Nugent may correctly say that Jett is undeserving of a "Top 100 Rock Guitarist" list, that when he thinks of her - she's a lesbian before all else. Make all the arguments you want against having her on the list....but why was this particular statement remotely necessary? Why say it if not to demean and marginalize?

I think you just answered your own question.

I think the fact that she was born in Wynnewood, PA in the same hospital where I had PT for a bike accident 7 years ago is much more interesting to me than her sexuality, but that's just me. Or her involvement in the official Runaways film and lack of involvement in Edgeplay, etc.

[SamDBL]

Nugent himself is not on the list.....but again - it's clear this is a personal list by a well-respected music journalist, not meant to be some collective agreement. Greg Ginn, D. Boon and Robert Quine are all on the list, and I'd have to assume most aggregate "Top 100 Guitar" lists wouldn't have any of those three (but where or where is Curt Kirkwood??).

And - what did Nugent say about Jett's appearance on this list - why - among other things - he said this:

"I love Joan. Some of my greatest memories include lesbians. I love the lesbians; it’s a cocktail of wonderment."

Seriously? It couldn't be clearer that, in the end, while Nugent may correctly say that Jett is undeserving of a "Top 100 Rock Guitarist" list, that when he thinks of her - she's a lesbian before all else. Make all the arguments you want against having her on the list....but why was this particular statement remotely necessary? Why say it if not to demean and marginalize?

I mean, I understand what you are saying. It's crude, it's boorish, it's unprofessional. But it's also a positive statement. He says he loves lesbians and that he loves Joan Jett. I take him at his word. It's hard for me to really read that in a super negative light.
But to the real issue, I totally disagree that Ginn, D. Boon, etc would not be on a lot of these lists, or that they wouldn't deserve to be given a certain realm parameters. The argument is not that Joan Jett *isn't* technically proficient, and for that reason alone should not be on this list. The idea is that on top of not being technically proficient, she is also not culturally important or influential as a guitar player. All of those other guys arguably are. There is nothing stand out about her playing. At all. The only argument that could possibly be made is the old tired chestnut that because she's a female, she inspired girls or something. Even then I think a ton of other females would come before her. I give her all the kudos in the world for being a hard rock front woman, singer/songwriter, etc. Put her on all of those lists. She's just not at all special or good specifically as a guitar player.
The Nuge, on the other hand... I was never, ever a fan of his music. Even before he became a basket case. I also was never hugely into his playing. He's obviously waaaay more proficient than someone like Jett. But that means nothing. I do, however, think he was waaaaaay more of an influential figure in his day. He has spoiled his legacy with his ranting persona. But objectively speaking, Ted Nugent's influence, especially in the world of rock guitar playing in the 70's, was massive. He totally *should* be on this list, if the list means anything.
But I simply take it to mean 'we need more girls on this list, so let's put Joan Jett on there' and 'Ted Nugent is an absolute asshole, so there is no way we can be caught dead giving him any sort of accolades at this point'. None of this has any bearing whatsoever on guitar playing skill or cultural importance. Thus, I declare this list to be utter horse shit.

[jaybird]

These are, IMNSHO, as a life-long Michigander, gun-owner/hunter, blueneck, the two best things Uncle Tedly ever did.

[JGJR]

These are, IMNSHO, as a life-long Michigander, gun-owner/hunter, blueneck, the two best things Uncle Tedly ever did.

I'd be proud to be a redneck, personally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redneck_Revolt

[jaybird]

These are, IMNSHO, as a life-long Michigander, gun-owner/hunter, blueneck, the two best things Uncle Tedly ever did.

I'd be proud to be a redneck, personally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redneck_Revolt

One of the few lefty groups that understands the principles behind SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

[JGJR]

These are, IMNSHO, as a life-long Michigander, gun-owner/hunter, blueneck, the two best things Uncle Tedly ever did.

I'd be proud to be a redneck, personally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redneck_Revolt

One of the few lefty groups that understands the principles behind SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

You and others may not like this, but it must be said whenever this type of stuff comes up. It's always been about who has the guns, not really about the guns themselves. I guarantee that if any of those RR folks or any of us lefties would've tried what the Capitol rioters got away with a year and a day ago today, far fewer of them would be around now.

I also don't know the full context of that meme (though I could make some educated guesses), but a liberal and a leftist are not the same. At all.

[jaybird]

These are, IMNSHO, as a life-long Michigander, gun-owner/hunter, blueneck, the two best things Uncle Tedly ever did.

I'd be proud to be a redneck, personally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redneck_Revolt

One of the few lefty groups that understands the principles behind SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

You and others may not like this, but it must be said whenever this type of stuff comes up. It's always been about who has the guns, not really about the guns themselves. I guarantee that if any of those RR folks or any of us lefties would've tried what the Capitol rioters got away with a year and a day ago today, far fewer of them would be around now.

I also don't know the full context of that meme (though I could make some educated guesses), but a liberal and a leftist are not the same. At all.

Well, there are barely any leftist groups that stand foursquare behind gun rights to begin with, so that is a bit of an "were ifs and buts fruits and nuts, then we'd have a salad" type-argument, IMO.

As for the second point, yes, I understand that arms-toting leftists (diminishingly few in number as they are) are not the same thing as NYT/NPR liberals... but it's the NYT/NPR liberals that want to roll back the 2A as a modern article of faith.

that said, it must really frost the commie's asses to no end that the closest thing to a proletarian uprising this country has seen to date was the doing of a bunch of Fox news MAGAtards.

[jaybird]

Anyway, back to Nugent... i'm pretty much where Henry is regarding the man.

[SamDBL]

Anyway, back to Nugent... i'm pretty much where Henry is regarding the man.

Also a big influence on Ian. I have no problem separating the art from the artist. I’ll not deny the dude his musical legacy as a dominating hard rock force of the 70s on the basis of his annoying political persona. And I’ll immediately write off any music historian that does.

[Knutsen]

Ted Nugent is a homosexual and still afraid to get out of the closet. That why he envies Joan Jett.

[JGJR]

that said, it must really frost the commie's asses to no end that the closest thing to a proletarian uprising this country has seen to date was the doing of a bunch of Fox news MAGAtards.

As a leftist myself, to be brutally honest, it does, but again, I think there are reasons for that, no nemore compelling than that it is much safer for folks who look like the Capitol mob to do that than it is for other folks.

I'm going to let your fellow Michigan native (and part-time resident of Traverse City) Michael Moore pinch hit for me because, as per usual, his thoughts echo many of my own. We're both Democratic Socialists, so...

https://www.michaelmoore.com/p/gunanddone (the righters of hunters/sportsmen must be separated from everything else and all the other gun insanity in this country, in other words)

https://www.michaelmoore.com/p/insurrectionist-envy (glad he had the balls to write this)

[SamDBL]

https://www.michaelmoore.com/p/insurrectionist-envy (glad he had the balls to write this)

Man, fuck that noise. I'm sick of people glorifying and justifying rioting. And this type of stuff directly undercuts anti-gun arguments that he makes in the same breath. At least, to those that don't feel like getting dragged out of their vehicle and beaten to death in one of these 'totally justified and righteous' uprisings, it does.

[JGJR]

https://www.michaelmoore.com/p/insurrectionist-envy (glad he had the balls to write this)

Man, fuck that noise. I'm sick of people glorifying and justifying rioting. And this type of stuff directly undercuts anti-gun arguments that he makes in the same breath. At least, to those that don't feel like getting dragged out of their vehicle and beaten to death in one of these 'totally justified and righteous' uprisings, it does.

You must have missed the "minus the violence and insanity" part of that post which is even in the headline. Did you read it?

[SamDBL]

https://www.michaelmoore.com/p/insurrectionist-envy (glad he had the balls to write this)

Man, fuck that noise. I'm sick of people glorifying and justifying rioting. And this type of stuff directly undercuts anti-gun arguments that he makes in the same breath. At least, to those that don't feel like getting dragged out of their vehicle and beaten to death in one of these 'totally justified and righteous' uprisings, it does.

You must have missed the "minus the violence and insanity" part of that post which is even in the headline. Did you read it?

I saw that. But I don't buy it. So what would we have had at the Capitol without violence and insanity? It's called protest. The left does plenty of that. And everyone these days is more than happy to conflate peaceful protest with rioting if they see the cause as a worthy one. And since no one can agree on which causes are worthy, I'm just not down with taking the chance. Imo, it's a very clumsy thing after a straight year of violent rioting from the right *and* the left to try and rally people around the idea that we don't have enough angry mobs in the streets. And if that's your stance, you can fuck off super hard about tamping down my right to defend myself.