So, Tobi Vail is a Fucking Idiot

[xxxHunterxxx]

I think the whole thing was a bit.

If it was, that would raise my opinion of KH by an order of magnitude or three

It’s totally a bit.

[jaybird]

NGL, her voice on that thing drives me wild. Like those humiliation videos. I'm a total sub.

X2

[xxxMidgexxx]

CAN WE ALL JUST CALM THE FUCK DOWN????

You're the only one who seems to be yelling, sir.

AND YOU ARE UNDERREACTING, SIR!

[jaybird]

CAN WE ALL JUST CALM THE FUCK DOWN????

You're the only one who seems to be yelling, sir.

AND YOU ARE UNDERREACTING, SIR!

[version sound]

Being able to make something worth listening to >>>>>>> Actual skill

That said, Bikini Kill never did much for me musically. There are other bands that got the riot grrrl tag that I like much more.

Also, gSp might be hypocritically apolitical, but I’d much rather listen to them than BK.

[SamDBL]

Being able to make something worth listening to >>>>>>> Actual skill

That said, Bikini Kill never did much for me musically. There are other bands that got the riot grrrl tag that I like much more.

Bingo. I think people are misinterpreting what I'm saying. 'Getting better at your instrument' doesn't necessarily mean getting a degree from a conservatory (though I think that kind of accomplishment is extremely worthwhile, and undervalued in punk). It also means busting your ass, mentally, and coming up with something unique and/or compelling with whatever skills you *do* have at your disposal. BK does none of this. They just flail away on a bunch of generic music with zero talent or ability and rely completely and utterly on schtick and exploitation of the market to cultivate their fanbase. That's *something*, but it ain't musicianship. Maybe they could be called marketing geniuses seeing as they were so ahead of the curve on their presentation. I'm not even joking.

[version sound]

I will give them credit for being groundbreaking and important for many reasons, but yeah, I don’t think their music itself was one of them. I’ve heard stuff that the members did after BK that was much better and more interesting on a musical level.

[JGJR]

I will give them credit for being groundbreaking and important for many reasons, but yeah, I don’t think their music itself was one of them. I’ve heard stuff that the members did after BK that was much better and more interesting on a musical level.

I'll say this much. Even as a BK fan, sometimes I think the first Le Tigre album is the pinnacle of what any of them have done musically.

I also think you guitar players are grossly underestimating how good Billy Karren (BK's guitarist) was.

[version sound]

I also think you guitar players are grossly underestimating how good Billy Karren (BK's guitarist) was.

His skill level has nothing to do with it for me. I love Blixa Bargeld’s playing on “Mutiny!” and early Bad Seeds records when he literally could not play guitar.

The thing that I never liked about BK was Kathleen’s vocals. Her singing is much better on other stuff.

[SamDBL]

I also think you guitar players are grossly underestimating how good Billy Karren (BK's guitarist) was.

Lol. Good one.

[JGJR]

This is useless. I'm done with the bitterness in this thread.

[SamDBL]

[SamDBL]

I will say this... at her height, Kathleen Hanna, despite her nauseating persona, was cute as fuck. Right up my alley. I'm sure that also had nothing to do with their success.

[jaybird]

I will say this... at her height, Kathleen Hanna, despite her nauseating persona, was cute as fuck. Right up my alley. I'm sure that also had nothing to do with their success.

SRSLY

[the mean]

Sometimes I think about how there used to be women that posted here. Then I am reminded why they don't anymore.

[xxxMidgexxx]

Sometimes I think about how there used to be women that posted here. Then I am reminded why they don't anymore.

What am I??

Chicken liver??

[jaybird]

Sometimes I think about how there used to be women that posted here. Then I am reminded why they don't anymore.

I've posted on some version of this board since 2001... I don't ever remember more than maybe two or three women ever posting here at any one time, and pretty much no women in the last 5 years or so. This board was pretty much always a bigger sausage-fest than even ALLcentral/the Dorkboard, whch is saying A LOT.

[SamDBL]

Sometimes I think about how there used to be women that posted here. Then I am reminded why they don't anymore.

I've posted on some version of this board since 2001... I don't ever remember more than maybe two or three women ever posting here at any one time, and pretty much no women in the last 5 years or so. This board was pretty much always a bigger sausage-fest than even ALLcentral/the Dorkboard, whch is saying A LOT.

That's ok. I think the over-representation of beta males on here count as at least pseudo-female.

[Knutsen]

Hardly any dicks around here.

[jaybird]

[JGJR]

You folks sound A LOT like those who thought the Beatles were a bunch of noise in the '60s or traditional jazz fans who thought that Ornette Coleman couldn't play, including a lot of critics back then. Just saying.

When the fuck has punk been about virtuosity anyway?

[SamDBL]

You folks sound A LOT like those who thought the Beatles were a bunch of noise in the '60s or traditional jazz fans who thought that Ornette Coleman couldn't play, including a lot of critics back then. Just saying.

When the fuck has punk been about virtuosity anyway?

I thought you were done with this thread. Anyway, you comparing to Bikini fucking Kill to the Beatles and Ornette Coleman illustrates how far off the point you are. In case you missed this:

" 'Getting better at your instrument' doesn't necessarily mean getting a degree from a conservatory (though I think that kind of accomplishment is extremely worthwhile, and undervalued in punk). It also means busting your ass, mentally, and coming up with something unique and/or compelling with whatever skills you *do* have at your disposal. BK does none of this. They just flail away on a bunch of generic music with zero talent or ability and rely completely and utterly on schtick and exploitation of the market to cultivate their fanbase."

It's not about viruosity. But if you can't play your instrument in a technical sense, you have to have something else to take it's place. The Ramones, Wire, Sex Pistols, etc... all of them did new and creative things musically regardless of their abilities. Where punk goes to shit is when it insists that you should actively avoid learning any technical ability, as well as any song writing craft or any other musically artistic skill and simply rely on sloganeering and fashion to propel your band. That's where Bikini Kill sit, imo. Fucking garbage.

[JGJR]

You folks sound A LOT like those who thought the Beatles were a bunch of noise in the '60s or traditional jazz fans who thought that Ornette Coleman couldn't play, including a lot of critics back then. Just saying.

When the fuck has punk been about virtuosity anyway?

I thought you were done with this thread. Anyway, you comparing to Bikini fucking Kill to the Beatles and Ornette Coleman illustrates how far off the point you are. In case you missed this:

" 'Getting better at your instrument' doesn't necessarily mean getting a degree from a conservatory (though I think that kind of accomplishment is extremely worthwhile, and undervalued in punk). It also means busting your ass, mentally, and coming up with something unique and/or compelling with whatever skills you *do* have at your disposal. BK does none of this. They just flail away on a bunch of generic music with zero talent or ability and rely completely and utterly on schtick and exploitation of the market to cultivate their fanbase."

It's not about viruosity. But if you can't play your instrument in a technical sense, you have to have something else to take it's place. The Ramones, Wire, Sex Pistols, etc... all of them did new and creative things musically regardless of their abilities. Where punk goes to shit is when it insists that you should actively avoid learning any technical ability, as well as any song writing craft or any other musically artistic skill and simply rely on sloganeering and fashion to propel your band. That's where Bikini Kill sit, imo. Fucking garbage.

I can change my mind, right? It's something I thought of afterwards and just didn't have a chance to post until today. If you think I'm comparing Bikini Kill or any rock band to The Beatles or Ornette Coleman, either your reading comprehension is off or I should've put that in as a disclaimer to be 100% fair. Point is: I wasn't. And yes, I saw that response earlier. I just think it applies to groups like BK, Born Against, etc. as well as Wire, The Ramones, etc. (who I love as well).

I think we're gonna just have to agree to disagree on their musical ability or whatever, but I'll also say that asserting that Kathleen's looks helped them (which they surely did, as has been the case in the music industry forever both male/female artists, etc.) is one thing, but to state that it's the only reason they got popular is, well, not only sexist, but a bit ridiculous because (as you said) they were always about ideas/politics/identity/3rd-wave feminism, too.

[SamDBL]

You folks sound A LOT like those who thought the Beatles were a bunch of noise in the '60s or traditional jazz fans who thought that Ornette Coleman couldn't play, including a lot of critics back then. Just saying.

When the fuck has punk been about virtuosity anyway?

I thought you were done with this thread. Anyway, you comparing to Bikini fucking Kill to the Beatles and Ornette Coleman illustrates how far off the point you are. In case you missed this:

" 'Getting better at your instrument' doesn't necessarily mean getting a degree from a conservatory (though I think that kind of accomplishment is extremely worthwhile, and undervalued in punk). It also means busting your ass, mentally, and coming up with something unique and/or compelling with whatever skills you *do* have at your disposal. BK does none of this. They just flail away on a bunch of generic music with zero talent or ability and rely completely and utterly on schtick and exploitation of the market to cultivate their fanbase."

It's not about viruosity. But if you can't play your instrument in a technical sense, you have to have something else to take it's place. The Ramones, Wire, Sex Pistols, etc... all of them did new and creative things musically regardless of their abilities. Where punk goes to shit is when it insists that you should actively avoid learning any technical ability, as well as any song writing craft or any other musically artistic skill and simply rely on sloganeering and fashion to propel your band. That's where Bikini Kill sit, imo. Fucking garbage.

I can change my mind, right? It's something I thought of afterwards and just didn't have a chance to post until today. If you think I'm comparing Bikini Kill or any rock band to The Beatles or Ornette Coleman, either your reading comprehension is off or I should've put that in as a disclaimer to be 100% fair. Point is: I wasn't. And yes, I saw that response earlier. I just think it applies to groups like BK, Born Against, etc. as well as Wire, The Ramones, etc. (who I love as well).

I think we're gonna just have to agree to disagree on their musical ability or whatever, but I'll also say that asserting that Kathleen's looks helped them (which they surely did, as has been the case in the music industry forever both male/female artists, etc.) is one thing, but to state that it's the only reason they got popular is, well, not only sexist, but a bit ridiculous because (as you said) they were always about ideas/politics/identity/3rd-wave feminism, too.

First off, you 100% did compare BK to those two, whether you meant to or not, by implying there is even a thread of similarity between writing off bikini kill and the Beatles. If you don’t see that as a comparison of the two, then it’s you that has the comprehension problem.
To your second point, first off I don’t see how saying ‘her looks helped their success’ is not sexist while saying ‘it was all of their success’ is. I didn’t say the latter. But if I did, it wouldn’t be sexist. As you admit, good looks help in the industry. And that applies to both female and male. I don’t see how stating that obvious fact is anything other than stating an obvious fact. The success of Bush and Leif Garrett was based almost solely on their looks. There, I said it.
I also said, earlier, that BKs success was largely based on market exploitation with the riot grrrl gimmick and great marketing of the angry feminist schtick. So not *all* based on her looks. And you know I said that because you god damn just repeated it.

[JGJR]

[The success of Bush and Leif Garrett was based almost solely on their looks. There, I said it.

Well we agree there, at least. Side note: I once saw Leif's rock band (forget what they were called, but I think 8 was in their name?) in the early '00s at Maxwell's. They weren't bad, like a 2nd tier grunge band or something, but kinda forgettable. I went because my then-girlfriend was reality-show obsessed (his Behind the Music is admittedly an epic one) and also old enough to have been a pre-teen and thus the right demographic when he was a teen idol in the late '70s.

[jaybird]

You folks sound A LOT like those who thought the Beatles were a bunch of noise in the '60s or traditional jazz fans who thought that Ornette Coleman couldn't play, including a lot of critics back then. Just saying.

When the fuck has punk been about virtuosity anyway?

I thought you were done with this thread. Anyway, you comparing to Bikini fucking Kill to the Beatles and Ornette Coleman illustrates how far off the point you are. In case you missed this:

" 'Getting better at your instrument' doesn't necessarily mean getting a degree from a conservatory (though I think that kind of accomplishment is extremely worthwhile, and undervalued in punk). It also means busting your ass, mentally, and coming up with something unique and/or compelling with whatever skills you *do* have at your disposal. BK does none of this. They just flail away on a bunch of generic music with zero talent or ability and rely completely and utterly on schtick and exploitation of the market to cultivate their fanbase."

It's not about viruosity. But if you can't play your instrument in a technical sense, you have to have something else to take it's place. The Ramones, Wire, Sex Pistols, etc... all of them did new and creative things musically regardless of their abilities. Where punk goes to shit is when it insists that you should actively avoid learning any technical ability, as well as any song writing craft or any other musically artistic skill and simply rely on sloganeering and fashion to propel your band. That's where Bikini Kill sit, imo. Fucking garbage.

I can change my mind, right? It's something I thought of afterwards and just didn't have a chance to post until today. If you think I'm comparing Bikini Kill or any rock band to The Beatles or Ornette Coleman, either your reading comprehension is off or I should've put that in as a disclaimer to be 100% fair. Point is: I wasn't. And yes, I saw that response earlier. I just think it applies to groups like BK, Born Against, etc. as well as Wire, The Ramones, etc. (who I love as well).

I think we're gonna just have to agree to disagree on their musical ability or whatever, but I'll also say that asserting that Kathleen's looks helped them (which they surely did, as has been the case in the music industry forever both male/female artists, etc.) is one thing, but to state that it's the only reason they got popular is, well, not only sexist, but a bit ridiculous because (as you said) they were always about ideas/politics/identity/3rd-wave feminism, too.

First off, you 100% did compare BK to those two, whether you meant to or not, by implying there is even a thread of similarity between writing off bikini kill and the Beatles. If you don’t see that as a comparison of the two, then it’s you that has the comprehension problem.
To your second point, first off I don’t see how saying ‘her looks helped their success’ is not sexist while saying ‘it was all of their success’ is. I didn’t say the latter. But if I did, it wouldn’t be sexist. As you admit, good looks help in the industry. And that applies to both female and male. I don’t see how stating that obvious fact is anything other than stating an obvious fact. The success of Bush and Leif Garrett was based almost solely on their looks. There, I said it.
I also said, earlier, that BKs success was largely based on market exploitation with the riot grrrl gimmick and great marketing of the angry feminist schtick. So not *all* based on her looks. And you know I said that because you god damn just repeated it.

I know time is a motherfucker for everyone, but goddamn, this is some cruel revenge-of-the-Gods Greek-myth shit:

[JGJR]

You folks sound A LOT like those who thought the Beatles were a bunch of noise in the '60s or traditional jazz fans who thought that Ornette Coleman couldn't play, including a lot of critics back then. Just saying.

When the fuck has punk been about virtuosity anyway?

I thought you were done with this thread. Anyway, you comparing to Bikini fucking Kill to the Beatles and Ornette Coleman illustrates how far off the point you are. In case you missed this:

" 'Getting better at your instrument' doesn't necessarily mean getting a degree from a conservatory (though I think that kind of accomplishment is extremely worthwhile, and undervalued in punk). It also means busting your ass, mentally, and coming up with something unique and/or compelling with whatever skills you *do* have at your disposal. BK does none of this. They just flail away on a bunch of generic music with zero talent or ability and rely completely and utterly on schtick and exploitation of the market to cultivate their fanbase."

It's not about viruosity. But if you can't play your instrument in a technical sense, you have to have something else to take it's place. The Ramones, Wire, Sex Pistols, etc... all of them did new and creative things musically regardless of their abilities. Where punk goes to shit is when it insists that you should actively avoid learning any technical ability, as well as any song writing craft or any other musically artistic skill and simply rely on sloganeering and fashion to propel your band. That's where Bikini Kill sit, imo. Fucking garbage.

I can change my mind, right? It's something I thought of afterwards and just didn't have a chance to post until today. If you think I'm comparing Bikini Kill or any rock band to The Beatles or Ornette Coleman, either your reading comprehension is off or I should've put that in as a disclaimer to be 100% fair. Point is: I wasn't. And yes, I saw that response earlier. I just think it applies to groups like BK, Born Against, etc. as well as Wire, The Ramones, etc. (who I love as well).

I think we're gonna just have to agree to disagree on their musical ability or whatever, but I'll also say that asserting that Kathleen's looks helped them (which they surely did, as has been the case in the music industry forever both male/female artists, etc.) is one thing, but to state that it's the only reason they got popular is, well, not only sexist, but a bit ridiculous because (as you said) they were always about ideas/politics/identity/3rd-wave feminism, too.

First off, you 100% did compare BK to those two, whether you meant to or not, by implying there is even a thread of similarity between writing off bikini kill and the Beatles. If you don’t see that as a comparison of the two, then it’s you that has the comprehension problem.
To your second point, first off I don’t see how saying ‘her looks helped their success’ is not sexist while saying ‘it was all of their success’ is. I didn’t say the latter. But if I did, it wouldn’t be sexist. As you admit, good looks help in the industry. And that applies to both female and male. I don’t see how stating that obvious fact is anything other than stating an obvious fact. The success of Bush and Leif Garrett was based almost solely on their looks. There, I said it.
I also said, earlier, that BKs success was largely based on market exploitation with the riot grrrl gimmick and great marketing of the angry feminist schtick. So not *all* based on her looks. And you know I said that because you god damn just repeated it.

I know time is a motherfucker for everyone, but goddamn, this is some cruel revenge-of-the-Gods Greek-myth shit:

I get the impression he's lucky to be alive because of the car accident and drug/alcohol consumption.

[jaybird]

You folks sound A LOT like those who thought the Beatles were a bunch of noise in the '60s or traditional jazz fans who thought that Ornette Coleman couldn't play, including a lot of critics back then. Just saying.

When the fuck has punk been about virtuosity anyway?

I thought you were done with this thread. Anyway, you comparing to Bikini fucking Kill to the Beatles and Ornette Coleman illustrates how far off the point you are. In case you missed this:

" 'Getting better at your instrument' doesn't necessarily mean getting a degree from a conservatory (though I think that kind of accomplishment is extremely worthwhile, and undervalued in punk). It also means busting your ass, mentally, and coming up with something unique and/or compelling with whatever skills you *do* have at your disposal. BK does none of this. They just flail away on a bunch of generic music with zero talent or ability and rely completely and utterly on schtick and exploitation of the market to cultivate their fanbase."

It's not about viruosity. But if you can't play your instrument in a technical sense, you have to have something else to take it's place. The Ramones, Wire, Sex Pistols, etc... all of them did new and creative things musically regardless of their abilities. Where punk goes to shit is when it insists that you should actively avoid learning any technical ability, as well as any song writing craft or any other musically artistic skill and simply rely on sloganeering and fashion to propel your band. That's where Bikini Kill sit, imo. Fucking garbage.

I can change my mind, right? It's something I thought of afterwards and just didn't have a chance to post until today. If you think I'm comparing Bikini Kill or any rock band to The Beatles or Ornette Coleman, either your reading comprehension is off or I should've put that in as a disclaimer to be 100% fair. Point is: I wasn't. And yes, I saw that response earlier. I just think it applies to groups like BK, Born Against, etc. as well as Wire, The Ramones, etc. (who I love as well).

I think we're gonna just have to agree to disagree on their musical ability or whatever, but I'll also say that asserting that Kathleen's looks helped them (which they surely did, as has been the case in the music industry forever both male/female artists, etc.) is one thing, but to state that it's the only reason they got popular is, well, not only sexist, but a bit ridiculous because (as you said) they were always about ideas/politics/identity/3rd-wave feminism, too.

First off, you 100% did compare BK to those two, whether you meant to or not, by implying there is even a thread of similarity between writing off bikini kill and the Beatles. If you don’t see that as a comparison of the two, then it’s you that has the comprehension problem.
To your second point, first off I don’t see how saying ‘her looks helped their success’ is not sexist while saying ‘it was all of their success’ is. I didn’t say the latter. But if I did, it wouldn’t be sexist. As you admit, good looks help in the industry. And that applies to both female and male. I don’t see how stating that obvious fact is anything other than stating an obvious fact. The success of Bush and Leif Garrett was based almost solely on their looks. There, I said it.
I also said, earlier, that BKs success was largely based on market exploitation with the riot grrrl gimmick and great marketing of the angry feminist schtick. So not *all* based on her looks. And you know I said that because you god damn just repeated it.

I know time is a motherfucker for everyone, but goddamn, this is some cruel revenge-of-the-Gods Greek-myth shit:

I get the impression he's lucky to be alive because of the car accident and drug/alcohol consumption.

Not necessarily incompatible with my hypothesis.

[xxxMidgexxx]

You people really are the worst.

GROW UP ALREADY.

[jaybird]

[xxxMidgexxx]

[SamDBL]

You folks sound A LOT like those who thought the Beatles were a bunch of noise in the '60s or traditional jazz fans who thought that Ornette Coleman couldn't play, including a lot of critics back then. Just saying.

When the fuck has punk been about virtuosity anyway?

I thought you were done with this thread. Anyway, you comparing to Bikini fucking Kill to the Beatles and Ornette Coleman illustrates how far off the point you are. In case you missed this:

" 'Getting better at your instrument' doesn't necessarily mean getting a degree from a conservatory (though I think that kind of accomplishment is extremely worthwhile, and undervalued in punk). It also means busting your ass, mentally, and coming up with something unique and/or compelling with whatever skills you *do* have at your disposal. BK does none of this. They just flail away on a bunch of generic music with zero talent or ability and rely completely and utterly on schtick and exploitation of the market to cultivate their fanbase."

It's not about viruosity. But if you can't play your instrument in a technical sense, you have to have something else to take it's place. The Ramones, Wire, Sex Pistols, etc... all of them did new and creative things musically regardless of their abilities. Where punk goes to shit is when it insists that you should actively avoid learning any technical ability, as well as any song writing craft or any other musically artistic skill and simply rely on sloganeering and fashion to propel your band. That's where Bikini Kill sit, imo. Fucking garbage.

I can change my mind, right? It's something I thought of afterwards and just didn't have a chance to post until today. If you think I'm comparing Bikini Kill or any rock band to The Beatles or Ornette Coleman, either your reading comprehension is off or I should've put that in as a disclaimer to be 100% fair. Point is: I wasn't. And yes, I saw that response earlier. I just think it applies to groups like BK, Born Against, etc. as well as Wire, The Ramones, etc. (who I love as well).

I think we're gonna just have to agree to disagree on their musical ability or whatever, but I'll also say that asserting that Kathleen's looks helped them (which they surely did, as has been the case in the music industry forever both male/female artists, etc.) is one thing, but to state that it's the only reason they got popular is, well, not only sexist, but a bit ridiculous because (as you said) they were always about ideas/politics/identity/3rd-wave feminism, too.

First off, you 100% did compare BK to those two, whether you meant to or not, by implying there is even a thread of similarity between writing off bikini kill and the Beatles. If you don’t see that as a comparison of the two, then it’s you that has the comprehension problem.
To your second point, first off I don’t see how saying ‘her looks helped their success’ is not sexist while saying ‘it was all of their success’ is. I didn’t say the latter. But if I did, it wouldn’t be sexist. As you admit, good looks help in the industry. And that applies to both female and male. I don’t see how stating that obvious fact is anything other than stating an obvious fact. The success of Bush and Leif Garrett was based almost solely on their looks. There, I said it.
I also said, earlier, that BKs success was largely based on market exploitation with the riot grrrl gimmick and great marketing of the angry feminist schtick. So not *all* based on her looks. And you know I said that because you god damn just repeated it.

I know time is a motherfucker for everyone, but goddamn, this is some cruel revenge-of-the-Gods Greek-myth shit:

I get the impression he's lucky to be alive because of the car accident and drug/alcohol consumption.

Not necessarily incompatible with my hypothesis.

Yeah, I dunno... being at that height of universal adoration and wealth and then ending up as broken down sack of beans with a hideous visage not dissimilar from a bulldog's taint due to your own dipshittedness... I think I might prefer to have kicked the bucket.

[jaybird]

If I am a boomer, that implies I am old and out-of-touch, and thus am necessarily a grown-up, which you were beseeching me (and others, i suppose) to do.

Hence, you contradict yourself.

Your move, my good sir.

[jaybird]

But back to the point at hand... to show I am not entirely the misogynist troglodyte I seem to be in danger of being framed as, I spent the better part of the afternoon on fb arguing in the affirmative that Debbie Harry has perhaps the greatest voice in rock and roll... completely unique, endlessly versatile, with massive popular appeal, chart success and long-term influence to back it up. I trust no one here doubts her feminist bona-fides, or that she is perhaps the supreme example of a bold, confident, trail-blazer as a woman in what was an overwhelmingly male-dominated world, who owned her sexuality and astonishing physical beauty, without making any apologies for either, and had a boatload of natural talent to back it all up and beat the boys at their own game... In short, pretty much everything that the ladies of Bikini Kill could ever have aspired to be, except that they are nowhere near as original or talented... like, not even in the same universe. And Debbie Harry was able to make her mark on popular consciousness without any of the obvious and forced boutique left-wing political grandstanding in her music, even though she almost certainly shares all the same opinions and sensibilities.

Thus be it Resolved: Debby Harry is the real deal, Kathleen Hanna/Toby Vail/Bikini Kill et. al. are barely competent hacks.

[SamDBL]

But back to the point at hand... to show I am not entirely the misogynist troglodyte I seem to be in danger of being framed as, I spent the better part of the afternoon on fb arguing in the affirmative that Debbie Harry has perhaps the greatest voice in rock and roll... completely unique, endlessly versatile, with massive popular appeal, chart success and long-term influence to back it up. I trust no one here doubts her feminist bona-fides, or that she is perhaps the supreme example of a bold, confident, trail-blazer as a woman in what was an overwhelmingly male-dominated world, who owned her sexuality and astonishing physical beauty, without making any apologies for either, and had a boatload of natural talent to back it all up and beat the boys at their own game... In short, pretty much everything that the ladies of Bikini Kill could ever have aspired to be, except that they are nowhere near as original or talented... like, not even in the same universe. And Debbie Harry was able to make her mark on popular consciousness without any of the obvious and forced boutique left-wing political grandstanding in her music, even though she almost certainly shares all the same opinions and sensibilities.

Thus be it Resolved: Debby Harry is the real deal, Kathleen Hanna/Toby Vail/Bikini Kill et. al. are barely competent hacks.

A-fucking-men. She demands to be taken more seriously because her music speaks for itself.

[xxxMidgexxx]

If I am a boomer, that implies I am old and out-of-touch, and thus am necessarily a grown-up, which you were beseeching me (and others, i suppose) to do.

Hence, you contradict yourself.

Your move, my good sir.

Wait, what??

Yes.

[JGJR]

If I am a boomer, that implies I am old and out-of-touch, and thus am necessarily a grown-up, which you were beseeching me (and others, i suppose) to do.

Hence, you contradict yourself.

Your move, my good sir.

Just because you're old and out of touch doesn't mean you ever grew up. The intersection in that Venn diagram has more overlap than you might think.

[JGJR]

But back to the point at hand... to show I am not entirely the misogynist troglodyte I seem to be in danger of being framed as, I spent the better part of the afternoon on fb arguing in the affirmative that Debbie Harry has perhaps the greatest voice in rock and roll... completely unique, endlessly versatile, with massive popular appeal, chart success and long-term influence to back it up. I trust no one here doubts her feminist bona-fides, or that she is perhaps the supreme example of a bold, confident, trail-blazer as a woman in what was an overwhelmingly male-dominated world, who owned her sexuality and astonishing physical beauty, without making any apologies for either, and had a boatload of natural talent to back it all up and beat the boys at their own game... In short, pretty much everything that the ladies of Bikini Kill could ever have aspired to be, except that they are nowhere near as original or talented... like, not even in the same universe. And Debbie Harry was able to make her mark on popular consciousness without any of the obvious and forced boutique left-wing political grandstanding in her music, even though she almost certainly shares all the same opinions and sensibilities.

Thus be it Resolved: Debby Harry is the real deal, Kathleen Hanna/Toby Vail/Bikini Kill et. al. are barely competent hacks.

Well, I admit you had me until you used Debbie as a cudgel to tear down BK/Kathleen for no good reason. I'm sure she inspired them. The Go-Go's certainly did. Just listen to Reject All American.

All that said, I LOVE Blondie and the 1st 4 albums in particular. I'm especially partial to the debut, Parallel Lines, and Eat to the Beat, though there are great moments after that and on Plastic Letters, too. The first reunion album No Exit was quite good, too; the subsequent ones had diminishing returns, but even then had some bangers.

I think she's still an underrated vocalist and lyricist tbh and that Chris Stein back in the day was an underrated guitarist, too. Obviously, Clem is a monster on drums. I've been fortunate enough to see him play covers in a basement bar with an all-star ban as well as with Blondie a bunch of times, etc. I'm not taking anything away from Debbie here. They wouldn't have become as popular as they are without her, of course, but they really were a true band/collaboration from the onset between her and Chris and had lots of songwriting help from Jimmy (keyboards) and Nigel (bass), especially.

To connect these dots, though, I'll say that I can see a straight line between female pioneers of '70s punk like Patti Smith (another huge favorite of mine), Wayne/Jayne County, Debbie Harry, Poly Styrene (listen to her and then any Riot Grrl group), Pauline Murray, et al. and the '90s stuff.

[jaybird]

But back to the point at hand... to show I am not entirely the misogynist troglodyte I seem to be in danger of being framed as, I spent the better part of the afternoon on fb arguing in the affirmative that Debbie Harry has perhaps the greatest voice in rock and roll... completely unique, endlessly versatile, with massive popular appeal, chart success and long-term influence to back it up. I trust no one here doubts her feminist bona-fides, or that she is perhaps the supreme example of a bold, confident, trail-blazer as a woman in what was an overwhelmingly male-dominated world, who owned her sexuality and astonishing physical beauty, without making any apologies for either, and had a boatload of natural talent to back it all up and beat the boys at their own game... In short, pretty much everything that the ladies of Bikini Kill could ever have aspired to be, except that they are nowhere near as original or talented... like, not even in the same universe. And Debbie Harry was able to make her mark on popular consciousness without any of the obvious and forced boutique left-wing political grandstanding in her music, even though she almost certainly shares all the same opinions and sensibilities.

Thus be it Resolved: Debby Harry is the real deal, Kathleen Hanna/Toby Vail/Bikini Kill et. al. are barely competent hacks.

Well, I admit you had me until you used Debbie as a cudgel to tear down BK/Kathleen for no good reason. I'm sure she inspired them. The Go-Go's certainly did. Just listen to Reject All American.

All that said, I LOVE Blondie and the 1st 4 albums in particular. I'm especially partial to the debut, Parallel Lines, and Eat to the Beat, though there are great moments after that and on Plastic Letters, too. The first reunion album No Exit was quite good, too; the subsequent ones had diminishing returns, but even then had some bangers.

I think she's still an underrated vocalist and lyricist tbh and that Chris Stein back in the day was an underrated guitarist, too. Obviously, Clem is a monster on drums. I've been fortunate enough to see him play covers in a basement bar with an all-star ban as well as with Blondie a bunch of times, etc. I'm not taking anything away from Debbie here. They wouldn't have become as popular as they are without her, of course, but they really were a true band/collaboration from the onset between her and Chris and had lots of songwriting help from Jimmy (keyboards) and Nigel (bass), especially.

To connect these dots, though, I'll say that I can see a straight line between female pioneers of '70s punk like Patti Smith (another huge favorite of mine), Wayne/Jayne County, Debbie Harry, Poly Styrene (listen to her and then any Riot Grrl group), Pauline Murray, et al. and the '90s stuff.

Yes, good point, another person that KH shamelessly ripped off. ... which again kinda goes back tot he original post/tweet that kicked of this whole thread... someone from one of the more blatantly derivative and unoriginal bands of the last 30 years taking shots at newer bands for their supposed "unoriginality"

[JGJR]

Yes, good point, another person that KH shamelessly ripped off. ... which again kinda goes back tot he original post/tweet that kicked of this whole thread... someone from one of the more blatantly derivative and unoriginal bands of the last 30 years taking shots at newer bands for their supposed "unoriginality"

I should've clarified that despite the constant comparisons, I never really thought that Kathleen sounded that much like Poly back then, but was definitely an influence in a lot of other ways, too, lyrically in particular. Also, re: the part I highlighted, I'm sure there are 90 billion other derivative/unoriginal bands more worthy of that title lol.

[jaybird]

Yes, good point, another person that KH shamelessly ripped off. ... which again kinda goes back tot he original post/tweet that kicked of this whole thread... someone from one of the more blatantly derivative and unoriginal bands of the last 30 years taking shots at newer bands for their supposed "unoriginality"

I should've clarified that despite the constant comparisons, I never really thought that Kathleen sounded that much like Poly back then, but was definitely an influence in a lot of other ways, too, lyrically in particular. Also, re: the part I highlighted, I'm sure there are 90 billion other derivative/unoriginal bands more worthy of that title lol.

I agree, they have plenty of company there, no doubt.

[xxxMidgexxx]

Yes, good point, another person that KH shamelessly ripped off. ... which again kinda goes back tot he original post/tweet that kicked of this whole thread... someone from one of the more blatantly derivative and unoriginal bands of the last 30 years taking shots at newer bands for their supposed "unoriginality"

I should've clarified that despite the constant comparisons, I never really thought that Kathleen sounded that much like Poly back then, but was definitely an influence in a lot of other ways, too, lyrically in particular. Also, re: the part I highlighted, I'm sure there are 90 billion other derivative/unoriginal bands more worthy of that title lol.

I agree, they have plenty of company there, no doubt.

GET

A

ROOM

[jaybird]

[pedro]

When I first clicked on this thread I though it was about the guy who played guitar in Guided by Voices. He was Toby something, right?

[the mean]

When I first clicked on this thread I though it was about the guy who played guitar in Guided by Voices. He was Toby something, right?

Toby Morse

[jaybird]

Tobin Sprout

[SamDBL]

When I first clicked on this thread I though it was about the guy who played guitar in Guided by Voices. He was Toby something, right?

Toby Morse

That's the H20 dude that's more than earned a citation for indiscriminate use of shout-outs.

[the mean]

When I first clicked on this thread I though it was about the guy who played guitar in Guided by Voices. He was Toby something, right?

Toby Morse

That's the H20 dude that's more than earned a citation for indiscriminate use of shout-outs.

Yes, that was a joke.

[SamDBL]

When I first clicked on this thread I though it was about the guy who played guitar in Guided by Voices. He was Toby something, right?

Toby Morse

That's the H20 dude that's more than earned a citation for indiscriminate use of shout-outs.

Yes, that was a joke.

'YO SHOUT OUT TO THE FUNNY MUTHA FUCKAS OUT THERE ON THE FUCKIN' INTERNET 'N SHIT!!'

[JGJR]

I also think you guitar players are grossly underestimating how good Billy Karren (BK's guitarist) was.

Lol. Good one.

You don't believe me? Look, I'm not a guitar player, so I may be getting into territory where I may not be properly qualified to judge someone's competence or whatever, but I know for a fact that he used to practice in a closet (I think) until he could play every early Cheap Trick Lp. I was reminded of this when I heard "Demirep" being used in new episodes of the show PEN-15, which just dropped on Hulu last night iirc. I forgot that was the theme of the show that opens every episode, so obviously, they know a good tune when they hear one. Same goes for "Rebel Girl." I mean if you don't give them some kind of props, you're just trolling.

That said, your Toby Morse thing above was REALLY funny, admittedly; gotta give credit where it's due.