Black Flag

[xxxMidgexxx]

37 years ago...

I was confused and captivated. And kinda scared.

[lewdd]

How have you progressed in the 37 years since then?

[xxxMidgexxx]

I did a lot of 'ecstatic' house music.

[SamDBL]

Also, apparently, some sort of anniversary for this ep. what are your thoughts on this one?

[xxxHunterxxx]

37 years ago...

I was confused and captivated. And kinda scared.

It was already over by then. You shoulda seen ‘em on the My War tour.

[xxxMidgexxx]

Also, apparently, some sort of anniversary for this ep. what are your thoughts on this one?

Hell yes! Love this. Got it immediately when it came out.

[SamDBL]

Also, apparently, some sort of anniversary for this ep. what are your thoughts on this one?

Hell yes! Love this. Got it immediately when it came out.

I used to think it was their peak. It was fucking *good*. I was really bummed they didn’t continue with this path and this line up. But I read one of them saying in an interview that Bill Steer was losing interest at that point, and he was coming to them with throw away Carcass riffs that didn’t make the cut. Doesn’t make me like this release any less. But now I can’t I hear the Carcass similarities.

[xxxMidgexxx]

I used to think it was their peak. It was fucking *good*. I was really bummed they didn’t continue with this path and this line up. But I read one of them saying in an interview that Bill Steer was losing interest at that point, and he was coming to them with throw away Carcass riffs that didn’t make the cut. Doesn’t make me like this release any less. But now I can’t I hear the Carcass similarities.

I was not exactly thrilled when ND went off course after this record and then into Harmony Corruption. I mean I like Barney's lyrics plenty, but I didn't love the way they veered into death metal at that point. I much preferred the purist grind/extreme noise they started. But yeah, Bill Steer was limited in ND. He's such an amazing guitarist and his solos are top notch just the way Michael Amott is. As I've said a million times on this board, 'Heartwork' is prolly my 2nd favorite metal record ever, just under 'Heaven and Hell'.

But Napalm Death REALLY bounced back in a big way. They're been on a killer streak for around 5 terrific albums in a row these days. The newest one "Throes of Joy in the Jaws of Defeatism" is another winner and they've brought in some excellent influences (Killing Joke, late period SWANS of course, and Ministry to name a few. And they do a great Sonic Youth cover as well.

I'd seen them a few times and they deliver live as well. Although Melvins were better the night that I saw them a few short years ago.

[JGJR]

I didn't love the way they veered into death metal at that point. I much preferred the purist grind/extreme noise they started.

This. So much this. Scum blew me away when I first heard it; still love it today, 30 years later (crazy). Even when 90% of what I was listening to was punk/hardcore/emo/post hardcore, et al., I always made room for stuff like ND. It felt more like the ultra-fast/brutal Slap-A-Ham/Sound Pollution type stuff I got into a little later in the '90s as opposed to any metal I'd listened to before that (or since then, really).

And they do a great Sonic Youth cover as well.

Oh nice, what song?

[xxxMidgexxx]

I didn't love the way they veered into death metal at that point. I much preferred the purist grind/extreme noise they started.

This. So much this. Scum blew me away when I first heard it; still love it today, 30 years later (crazy). Even when 90% of what I was listening to was punk/hardcore/emo/post hardcore, et al., I always made room for stuff like ND. It felt more like the ultra-fast/brutal Slap-A-Ham/Sound Pollution type stuff I got into a little later in the '90s as opposed to any metal I'd listened to before that (or since then, really).

And they do a great Sonic Youth cover as well.

Oh nice, what song?

Kotton Krown (from 'Sister')

[JGJR]

I didn't love the way they veered into death metal at that point. I much preferred the purist grind/extreme noise they started.

This. So much this. Scum blew me away when I first heard it; still love it today, 30 years later (crazy). Even when 90% of what I was listening to was punk/hardcore/emo/post hardcore, et al., I always made room for stuff like ND. It felt more like the ultra-fast/brutal Slap-A-Ham/Sound Pollution type stuff I got into a little later in the '90s as opposed to any metal I'd listened to before that (or since then, really).

And they do a great Sonic Youth cover as well.

Oh nice, what song?

Kotton Krown (from 'Sister')

Wouldn't imagine ND covering that song in a million years; will have to look that up; thanks.

[xxxMidgexxx]

I didn't love the way they veered into death metal at that point. I much preferred the purist grind/extreme noise they started.

This. So much this. Scum blew me away when I first heard it; still love it today, 30 years later (crazy). Even when 90% of what I was listening to was punk/hardcore/emo/post hardcore, et al., I always made room for stuff like ND. It felt more like the ultra-fast/brutal Slap-A-Ham/Sound Pollution type stuff I got into a little later in the '90s as opposed to any metal I'd listened to before that (or since then, really).

And they do a great Sonic Youth cover as well.

Oh nice, what song?

Kotton Krown (from 'Sister')

Wouldn't imagine ND covering that song in a million years; will have to look that up; thanks.

My mistake... it was WHITE KROSS.

My old band used to cover Kotton Krown. LOL

[JGJR]

I didn't love the way they veered into death metal at that point. I much preferred the purist grind/extreme noise they started.

This. So much this. Scum blew me away when I first heard it; still love it today, 30 years later (crazy). Even when 90% of what I was listening to was punk/hardcore/emo/post hardcore, et al., I always made room for stuff like ND. It felt more like the ultra-fast/brutal Slap-A-Ham/Sound Pollution type stuff I got into a little later in the '90s as opposed to any metal I'd listened to before that (or since then, really).

And they do a great Sonic Youth cover as well.

Oh nice, what song?

Kotton Krown (from 'Sister')

Wouldn't imagine ND covering that song in a million years; will have to look that up; thanks.

My mistake... it was WHITE KROSS.

My old band used to cover Kotton Krown. LOL

Mixup is totally understandable; same SY album, but yeah that seems more in ND's wheelhouse. I've never heard your old band's cover of "Kotton Krown" but now I would like to.

[xxxMidgexxx]

I've never heard your old band's cover of "Kotton Krown" but now I would like to.

We never recorded it officially. It was part of our medley at the end of the set in Europe:

Kotton Krown (SY)
Hey Hey Spaceman (Guided by Voices)
Run to the Hills (Maiden)
In the City (The Jam)
Zombie (Cranberries)

[patient_ot]

Later period BF is a tough go for me. Maybe at some point I'll give that stuff another chance. Even albums like MW and SII, which I like somewhat, I don't really put on when I want to hear BF.

FWIW I appreciate the influence they had on other bands when they started to experiment more.

Re: ND, I'm definitely more of a fan of the early grind stuff than HC or anything after. At some point I may revisit that stuff as well.

[AssWreckersInc]

Black Flag stuff after Slip It In just sorta dragged on for me. It was very stock sounding at that point.

When Rollins put out Life Time, to me, that’s what Black Flag should have been striving for. It’s a nice sequel to Black Flag considering Andrew Weiss almost became Black Flag’s bassist.

I celebrated Napalm Death up to Fear Emptiness Despair when they caught the Helmet bug.

I remember Iggy Pop mentioning in a televised interview around ‘88 or maybe ‘90 how much he loved Napalm Death.

I also remember watching a porno at that time with Ron Jeremy wearing a Napalm Death shirt in it.

[xxxMidgexxx]

I remember Iggy Pop mentioning in a televised interview around ‘88 or maybe ‘90 how much he loved Napalm Death.

Ronnie James Dio is on record in many interviews talking about how Napalm Death were one of his favorites in the "new" crop of bands. He loved the way that they said 'fuck you' to all the rules and did everything their own way with zero compromise no matter how extreme their sound and choices were.

Paraphrasing here. ..but he said something to effect of 'they decided there would be no chorus, and only a fraction of a verse or even a fraction of a sentence before the song was over. That is really uncompromising." He loved their spirit of rebellion.

[scannest]

Ronnie James Dio is on record in many interviews talking about how Napalm Death were one of his favorites in the "new" crop of bands.

Really? This guy?

[version sound]

Later period BF is a tough go for me. Maybe at some point I'll give that stuff another chance. Even albums like MW and SII, which I like somewhat, I don't really put on when I want to hear BF.

FWIW I appreciate the influence they had on other bands when they started to experiment more.

Black Flag stuff after Slip It In just sorta dragged on for me. It was very stock sounding at that point.

When Rollins put out Life Time, to me, that’s what Black Flag should have been striving for. It’s a nice sequel to Black Flag considering Andrew Weiss almost became Black Flag’s bassist.

I’ve told this story before, but it bears repeating, I bought Damaged in 1982, quickly followed by all their previous EPs. Then that fucking court case happened, and there was no new BF until 1984. Not only was 2 years a looong fucking time to wait for a record when you are 11-13 years old, it was a goddamn epoch in the life of early hardcore. Things moved fast then, and the musical landscape of 1984 was nothing like it was in 1982. It was pretty fucking dismal, in fact. But FINALLY, there was a new Black Flag record to make it all better. Except that record was My War, and it kinda sucked. I always liked side 2, so don’t paint me as some kind of speed-first philistine, it was the songs on side 1 where Henry actually tried to sing that left me cold (and still do to a certain extent). It just seemed like a bunch of rock’n’roll bullshit to me. Slip It In was a bit of an improvement (except for the full-cringe of the title track), but before long, I had to acknowledge that Black Flag just wasn’t the band I loved anymore.

As for Rollins Band, I actually preferred them to late Black Flag. Some of the fire was back, and, maybe most importantly, it wasn’t being sold as Black Flag, which those later records bear little resemblance to, at least if you’re talking about the band that made everything up to the TV Party EP. I know that some of you poor souls heard that late trash first and forever had your impression of Black Flag ruined, and for that I truly feel sorry for you. Black Flag weren’t always a bunch of potheads (ok, maybe just Greg) pioneering grunge, and I am deeply sorry that was your first impression of them.

[patient_ot]

I’ve told this story before, but it bears repeating, I bought Damaged in 1982, quickly followed by all their previous EPs. Then that fucking court case happened, and there was no new BF until 1984. Not only was 2 years a looong fucking time to wait for a record when you are 11-13 years old, it was a goddamn epoch in the life of early hardcore. Things moved fast then, and the musical landscape of 1984 was nothing like it was in 1982. It was pretty fucking dismal, in fact. But FINALLY, there was a new Black Flag record to make it all better. Except that record was My War, and it kinda sucked. I always liked side 2, so don’t paint me as some kind of speed-first philistine, it was the songs on side 1 where Henry actually tried to sing that left me cold (and still do to a certain extent). It just seemed like a bunch of rock’n’roll bullshit to me. Slip It In was a bit of an improvement (except for the full-cringe of the title track), but before long, I had to acknowledge that Black Flag just wasn’t the band I loved anymore.

As for Rollins Band, I actually preferred them to late Black Flag. Some of the fire was back, and, maybe most importantly, it wasn’t being sold as Black Flag, which those later records bear little resemblance to, at least if you’re talking about the band that made everything up to the TV Party EP. I know that some of you poor souls heard that late trash first and forever had your impression of Black Flag ruined, and for that I truly feel sorry for you. Black Flag weren’t always a bunch of potheads (ok, maybe just Greg) pioneering grunge, and I am deeply sorry that was your first impression of them.

Cool story. As I've probably mentioned, I didn't discover hardcore until the 90s, so that is when I heard BF. I heard the First 4 Years first, then Damaged afterwards. I loved most of F4Y right away, but Damaged took some time to grow on me. I didn't like the later stuff at all when I first heard it, despite it being a big influence on bands I liked at the time, e.g. Deadguy/Kiss It Goodbye and such.

I don't think I've ever heard a complete Rollins Band album. I liked some songs here and there but don't know much about their catalog.

I also agree that 2 years is long time between albums for a punk/hc/indie band. Even in the 90s it felt like a long time and plenty of bands lost momentum or split up from stuff like that. In the 80s I imagine it would have been even worse for a band to go that long without releasing a record. The change in sound afterwards must have been very jarring.

[AssWreckersInc]

I’ve told this story before, but it bears repeating, I bought Damaged in 1982, quickly followed by all their previous EPs. Then that fucking court case happened, and there was no new BF until 1984. Not only was 2 years a looong fucking time to wait for a record when you are 11-13 years old, it was a goddamn epoch in the life of early hardcore. Things moved fast then, and the musical landscape of 1984 was nothing like it was in 1982. It was pretty fucking dismal, in fact. But FINALLY, there was a new Black Flag record to make it all better. Except that record was My War, and it kinda sucked. I always liked side 2, so don’t paint me as some kind of speed-first philistine, it was the songs on side 1 where Henry actually tried to sing that left me cold (and still do to a certain extent). It just seemed like a bunch of rock’n’roll bullshit to me. Slip It In was a bit of an improvement (except for the full-cringe of the title track), but before long, I had to acknowledge that Black Flag just wasn’t the band I loved anymore.

As for Rollins Band, I actually preferred them to late Black Flag. Some of the fire was back, and, maybe most importantly, it wasn’t being sold as Black Flag, which those later records bear little resemblance to, at least if you’re talking about the band that made everything up to the TV Party EP. I know that some of you poor souls heard that late trash first and forever had your impression of Black Flag ruined, and for that I truly feel sorry for you. Black Flag weren’t always a bunch of potheads (ok, maybe just Greg) pioneering grunge, and I am deeply sorry that was your first impression of them.

Cool story. As I've probably mentioned, I didn't discover hardcore until the 90s, so that is when I heard BF. I heard the First 4 Years first, then Damaged afterwards. I loved most of F4Y right away, but Damaged took some time to grow on me. I didn't like the later stuff at all when I first heard it, despite it being a big influence on bands I liked at the time, e.g. Deadguy/Kiss It Goodbye and such.

I don't think I've ever heard a complete Rollins Band album. I liked some songs here and there but don't know much about their catalog.

I also agree that 2 years is long time between albums for a punk/hc/indie band. Even in the 90s it felt like a long time and plenty of bands lost momentum or split up from stuff like that. In the 80s I imagine it would have been even worse for a band to go that long without releasing a record. The change in sound afterwards must have been very jarring.

Go listen to Rollins Band’s Life Time right now bromie. It sounds like Black Flag meets like Wire and Coltrane but totally super charged with a killer rhythm section. Sim Cain is one of the top drummers and he and Andrew had been locked in since they were in high school. Life Time gets lost in the shuffle but I mean it predicted and influenced a lot of the ideas bands started kicking around in the 90’s for better or worse.

[version sound]

Hot Animal Machine, Life Time, and Hard Volume are all worth checking out. Also, it’s been a long time since I heard it last, but the live record, Turned On, is amazing. That band was pretty incredible.

[drew]

I didn't love the way they veered into death metal at that point. I much preferred the purist grind/extreme noise they started.

This. So much this. Scum blew me away when I first heard it; still love it today, 30 years later (crazy). Even when 90% of what I was listening to was punk/hardcore/emo/post hardcore, et al., I always made room for stuff like ND. It felt more like the ultra-fast/brutal Slap-A-Ham/Sound Pollution type stuff I got into a little later in the '90s as opposed to any metal I'd listened to before that (or since then, really).

And they do a great Sonic Youth cover as well.

Oh nice, what song?

Kotton Krown (from 'Sister')

Wouldn't imagine ND covering that song in a million years; will have to look that up; thanks.

My mistake... it was WHITE KROSS.

My old band used to cover Kotton Krown. LOL

Once again I have to explain Sonic Youth to you. I guess you will never really understand them.

[AssWreckersInc]

I had heard all the early Black Flag stuff from my older brother and was into it but not totally convinced on punk rock yet. I was still obsessed with AC/DC, the Doors, Sabbath. Slip It In was the first one I bought with my own money, before that I had only heard them when my brother had it blasting on the stereo.i went back and revisited the earlier stuff in my brothers collection and it clicked for me later.

I must admit I thought of punk rock as music for trendy people at that time. Like Sex Pistols fans with colored hair and safety pin piercings was what I was seeing and I thought it was unoriginal and lame seeing all these copycats. I liked the Ramones but some songs had too much bubble gum and Beach Boys ideas. I really disliked The Beach Boys at this time period. So I was stuck on hard rock for awhile. Black Flag helped me bring me over to the other side.

[JGJR]

I’ve told this story before, but it bears repeating, I bought Damaged in 1982, quickly followed by all their previous EPs. Then that fucking court case happened, and there was no new BF until 1984. Not only was 2 years a looong fucking time to wait for a record when you are 11-13 years old, it was a goddamn epoch in the life of early hardcore. Things moved fast then, and the musical landscape of 1984 was nothing like it was in 1982. It was pretty fucking dismal, in fact. But FINALLY, there was a new Black Flag record to make it all better. Except that record was My War, and it kinda sucked. I always liked side 2, so don’t paint me as some kind of speed-first philistine, it was the songs on side 1 where Henry actually tried to sing that left me cold (and still do to a certain extent). It just seemed like a bunch of rock’n’roll bullshit to me. Slip It In was a bit of an improvement (except for the full-cringe of the title track), but before long, I had to acknowledge that Black Flag just wasn’t the band I loved anymore.

As for Rollins Band, I actually preferred them to late Black Flag. Some of the fire was back, and, maybe most importantly, it wasn’t being sold as Black Flag, which those later records bear little resemblance to, at least if you’re talking about the band that made everything up to the TV Party EP. I know that some of you poor souls heard that late trash first and forever had your impression of Black Flag ruined, and for that I truly feel sorry for you. Black Flag weren’t always a bunch of potheads (ok, maybe just Greg) pioneering grunge, and I am deeply sorry that was your first impression of them.

Cool story. As I've probably mentioned, I didn't discover hardcore until the 90s, so that is when I heard BF. I heard the First 4 Years first, then Damaged afterwards. I loved most of F4Y right away, but Damaged took some time to grow on me. I didn't like the later stuff at all when I first heard it, despite it being a big influence on bands I liked at the time, e.g. Deadguy/Kiss It Goodbye and such.

I don't think I've ever heard a complete Rollins Band album. I liked some songs here and there but don't know much about their catalog.

I also agree that 2 years is long time between albums for a punk/hc/indie band. Even in the 90s it felt like a long time and plenty of bands lost momentum or split up from stuff like that. In the 80s I imagine it would have been even worse for a band to go that long without releasing a record. The change in sound afterwards must have been very jarring.

Go listen to Rollins Band’s Life Time right now bromie. It sounds like Black Flag meets like Wire and Coltrane but totally super charged with a killer rhythm section. Sim Cain is one of the top drummers and he and Andrew had been locked in since they were in high school. Life Time gets lost in the shuffle but I mean it predicted and influenced a lot of the ideas bands started kicking around in the 90’s for better or worse.

I second this recommendation. I wish I'd held on to my old CD copy since I slept on the Dischord-distributed vinyl reissue from a few years back. The greater point is that I don't think Deadguy/KIB or Ressurection (pre-Deadguy and many others) would have sounded the same without that record. I think they've said that they listened to it daily at points.

[JGJR]

Hot Animal Machine, Life Time, and Hard Volume are all worth checking out. Also, it’s been a long time since I heard it last, but the live record, Turned On, is amazing. That band was pretty incredible.

Don't sleep on the Drive-By Shooting EP, either. It was included on later CD versions of Hot Animal Machine, I think.

[scannest]

For a guy who didn't much care at all about BF, it's crazy how many times I saw (and loved) ROLLINS BAND. So many times between '87 and '94. Seeing that their home base was Trenton I guess that shouldn't be big shock (countless times at City Gardens, both opening and headlining).

[jaybird]

I started listening to Black Flag in '85, so definitely came to them late, but I more or less followed their chronology of releases... I bought Damaged first, then got Everything Went Black, then got My War, Slip It In, Loose Nut, etc.... so I was able to get into all of it more or less within a compressed 1-year or so timeframe and the progression in their sound seemed pretty natural and organic to me... I loved Loose Nut almost as much as I did Damaged. I got to see their 2nd-to-last show ever (the 2013 "reunion" bullshit does not count) with the much maligned final lineup with C'el on bass in June of '86 and it still ranks as one of the best shows I've ever seen. I'm sure being 16 and it being my first "real" punk show made it all seem way larger than life, but still, it just blew me away.

[FormerLurker]

Where was this penultimate show?

[SamDBL]

Where was this penultimate show?

Please. We have already killed one man's dream/claim to fame on this board. Let's not press any further on this.

[jaybird]

Where was this penultimate show?

LOL...

June 26, 1986 Nectarine Ballroom, Ann Arbor, MI (supported by Painted Willie & Gone)

June 27, 1986 Graystone Hall, Detroit, MI (supported by Painted Willie & Gone. Final show)

https://concerts.fandom.com/wiki/Black_Flag

[drew]

I still love Black Flag and I dig the later stuff more and more as time goes by. Even The Process of Weeding Out is great. Family Man not so much but has its moments too.



Rollins Band is another story altogether. Life Time is def a top-5 all time album for me. The early stuff including Hot Animal Machine & Drive By Shooting are dark, cool & fun all at the same time. Do It is a completer ranger.

Incredible live band no matter what size venue.

[captain2man]

Are we telling BF origin stories? Hooray. My BF origin story is also my punk rock origin story.

Had two paper routes when I was a kid so had some extra money in the pocket and used to bike up to Island Sound in Merrick, NY every weekend and came home with a record or two. Probably started going up there when I was in 5th grade....started with the usual classic rock and graduated to heavier stuff. Found the "metal" section and used to just buy random things out of there.

Spring of 1986, I was just about to turn 13, and I saw a My War t-shirt for sale and the image just completely captivated me. Loved everything about it....the artwork, the band's name, the way it was written, the bars. I asked Ron, the owner, if he had anything by THAT band....I needed to hear it. He knew my tastes well and didn't think I'd be into it. He had two tapes behind the counter. He said he would sell them to me, but if I didn't like them, come back in a week and he would refund my money. Those two tapes were Family Man and Slip It In. I brought them home, popped Family Man on first and was instantly intrigued....although confused because there was no music. But then Armageddon Man kicked in and I was sold. Loved the instrumental side....and then put on Slip It In, which is a more traditional type of record, but still ferocious. I didn't even know it was "punk"....that term only meant stuff that sounded like the Sex Pistols and made by people who wore mohawks. It was heavy - but also not quite like any metal I had heard. It was like finding a new room in your house that you never knew was there.

I went back the next week and said I needed more. I loved it....MORE OF THAT!! He pointed me to the punk/hardcore section - a section I had never even considered going through before. I didn't know a single band in that rack. He had Jealous Again for sale and I found The Blasting Concept comp - which had Black Flag but a bunch of other bands too. Brought this home.....and was totally confused because it sounded like a totally different band. No internet back then - you had to just sort of figure it all out as you went. Read the liner notes to the Blasting Concept a hundred times.

I pretty much only went back to that rack of records going forward....bought anything by Black Flag or the SST label on there and then ventured out from there. All of my first purchases came out of that bin.

[version sound]

FYI, The Vinyl Guide podcast recently had a two-parter with Joe Carducci and has also had interviews with Kira, Chuck, Henry, and Keith. Well worth the listen(s) if you’re an SST/Black Flag fan. IIRC, Milo’s been on too.