Rap sux.

[xxxMidgexxx]

[xxxMidgexxx]

[the mean]

[xxxMidgexxx]

[xxxMidgexxx]

[xxxMidgexxx]

[xxxMidgexxx]

[xxxMidgexxx]

The only good rap song.

[the mean]

[xxxMidgexxx]

[SamDBL]

Also, given by what I post about on here and other social media outlets....it's pretty clear I don't listen to much rap at all. But I also don't think that it requires no talent, and there is rap that I like so I won't write off the genre.

This is a separate point from what I’m saying in this thread, though. I’m saying I think that if it is of the variety in which the music is solely on a computer program from samples that it is simply something different than music made from playing musical instruments. I do not buy the argument that the computer has become an instrument. Just as I don’t buy that a person playing a sports video game, no matter how talented, is the same as an actual athlete. There is a legitimacy deficit, there. Modern age rap should just have some separate designation other than ‘music genre’, which implies that a musical instrument (and therefore the discipline of learning to play an instrument) is part of the equation. I think ‘audio collage’ or ‘virtual music’ both have a nice ring to them. I mean, I’d just as soon call it rhinoceros diarrhea. But I’m willing to work with you guys a little.

[Mark T.]

Audio Collage gets my vote.

Question - As one who does like to dabble from time-to-time into audio collages, but who can strum a few chords and tickle a few keys make my collages more legit? Or does that fall into a different category all together? Or does it just get the dreaded asterisk added to it, like the baseball homerun superstars who were on steroids?

[SamDBL]

I just now decided that the official definition of an audio collage is a recording in which the ‘music’ is composed solely of samples manipulated on a digital audio work station. This definition is ever-evolving and subject to change at my will.

[xxxMidgexxx]

Also, given by what I post about on here and other social media outlets....it's pretty clear I don't listen to much rap at all. But I also don't think that it requires no talent, and there is rap that I like so I won't write off the genre.

This is a separate point from what I’m saying in this thread, though. I’m saying I think that if it is of the variety in which the music is solely on a computer program from samples that it is simply something different than music made from playing musical instruments. I do not buy the argument that the computer has become an instrument. Just as I don’t buy that a person playing a sports video game, no matter how talented, is the same as an actual athlete. There is a legitimacy deficit, there. Modern age rap should just have some separate designation other than ‘music genre’, which implies that a musical instrument (and therefore the discipline of learning to play an instrument) is part of the equation. I think ‘audio collage’ or ‘virtual music’ both have a nice ring to them. I mean, I’d just as soon call it rhinoceros diarrhea. But I’m willing to work with you guys a little.

[SamDBL]

Also, given by what I post about on here and other social media outlets....it's pretty clear I don't listen to much rap at all. But I also don't think that it requires no talent, and there is rap that I like so I won't write off the genre.

This is a separate point from what I’m saying in this thread, though. I’m saying I think that if it is of the variety in which the music is solely on a computer program from samples that it is simply something different than music made from playing musical instruments. I do not buy the argument that the computer has become an instrument. Just as I don’t buy that a person playing a sports video game, no matter how talented, is the same as an actual athlete. There is a legitimacy deficit, there. Modern age rap should just have some separate designation other than ‘music genre’, which implies that a musical instrument (and therefore the discipline of learning to play an instrument) is part of the equation. I think ‘audio collage’ or ‘virtual music’ both have a nice ring to them. I mean, I’d just as soon call it rhinoceros diarrhea. But I’m willing to work with you guys a little.

‘Xactly.

[xxxMidgexxx]

‘Xactly.

Fact: I do realize that I am very easily amused, but I laughed like f'n hell the first time I'd ever seem that one. I still chuckle out loud when I see it.

Look at Kanye's face after you read the whole thing.. LMFAO

[the mean]

[the mean]

[xxxMidgexxx]

[JGJR]

I dislike the genre.

Probably just for the sake of debate, I would, however, posit that "musicianship" and "instruments" are -like most art- flexible terms.

If someone chooses to use drum machines, samples, industrial noises, and such as their "instruments", making a piece of art out of existing art that is different (note I didn't say "greater than") than the whole/original... then I guess that's their thing. There's obviously some technical skills required in programming percussion devices. It may lean even more past skills and towards "talent" if someone can get machinery making modern music and still be open hearted.

A drum circle of people banging on paint buckets doesn't have much in the way of instruments, but it can be quite evolved.

That said, the sadly prolific themes of an awful lot of rap (constant braggadocio, foul-mouthed sexist and racist lyrics, glorification of crime, etc.) turns me off even if I *did* like the 4/4 beats of an Roland 808 machine set to loop.

I see what you did there and am just here to say I approve greatly of Permanent Waves-era Rush.

[JGJR]

It is a generalization. I’m sure there are rap bands that play actual instruments. But that the rare exception in the genre.

Nonsense. I've seen Cypress Hill play with so-called "real" instruments and if you don't know who The Pharcyde and The Roots (both are hip-hop bands) are, I'd give them a chance. The Roots have backed Jay-Z on his Unplugged album and tons of other people over the years, they did a record with Elvis Costello in 2013, etc. and I could go on.

[JGJR]

Three nebbish-y Jews made the greatest hip-hop album of all time.

I will say this. As much as I do not like rap at all, THAT is a decent album. But its' because it draws from a diverse variety of musical genres and moods. It muddies up the term 'rap' and that's the only way I could like it. There's some jazz crossing over...and the writing is bizarre.

Decent? It's one of the best albums ever made IMO, any genre.

[SamDBL]

It is a generalization. I’m sure there are rap bands that play actual instruments. But that the rare exception in the genre.

Nonsense. I've seen Cypress Hill play with so-called "real" instruments and if you don't know who The Pharcyde and The Roots (both are hip-hop bands) are, I'd give them a chance. The Roots have backed Jay-Z on his Unplugged album and tons of other people over the years, they did a record with Elvis Costello in 2013, etc. and I could go on.

Of course I know Pharcyde/Roots/Cypress Hill. I hate every single one of them, just as a matter of preference. There are a couple of Roots songs I like, but they are not at all hip hop songs (that Family song that was on Yo Gabba Gabba is pretty good). But total bullshit if you think rattling off these bands playing actual instruments somehow makes it the norm in modern rap music. They are, as I clearly said, the exception. And as such, I would give them a higher standing from 90% of their peers in terms of legitimate music. However, I still think they fucking suck. Cypress Hill? Are you kidding me?

[xxxMidgexxx]

It is a generalization. I’m sure there are rap bands that play actual instruments. But that the rare exception in the genre.

Nonsense. I've seen Cypress Hill play with so-called "real" instruments and if you don't know who The Pharcyde and The Roots (both are hip-hop bands) are, I'd give them a chance. The Roots have backed Jay-Z on his Unplugged album and tons of other people over the years, they did a record with Elvis Costello in 2013, etc. and I could go on.

Of course I know Pharcyde/Roots/Cypress Hill. I hate every single one of them, just as a matter of preference. There are a couple of Roots songs I like, but they are not at all hip hop songs (that Family song that was on Yo Gabba Gabba is pretty good). But total bullshit if you think rattling off these bands playing actual instruments somehow makes it the norm in modern rap music. They are, as I clearly said, the exception. And as such, I would give them a higher standing from 90% of their peers in terms of legitimate music. However, I still think they fucking suck. Cypress Hill? Are you kidding me?

Thanks for white-splaining all of this, Sam. You monster.

[jaybird]

I will say I am kinda fascinated with this whole trend of idiots with tattoos on their faces mumbling over generic loops and beats... I mean, I agree a lot of punk and metal and otherwise "extreme" music has no shortage of endlessly-mockable clichés and so forth.... but this sort of shit is basically the essence of hip-hop crawling up its own asshole forever... doesn't even have any hot twerking black chicks to make the video worthwhile, just a crew of dipshits waving guns and wads of singles around... I'm amazed one of these clowns hasn't blown their dick off during one of these video shoots:

[Mark T.]

I will say I am kinda fascinated with this whole trend of idiots with tattoos on their faces mumbling over generic loops and beats... I mean, I agree a lot of punk and metal and otherwise "extreme" music has no shortage of endlessly-mockable clichés and so forth.... but this sort of shit is basically the essence of hip-hop crawling up its own asshole forever... doesn't even have any hot twerking black chicks to make the video worthwhile, just a crew of dipshits waving guns and wads of singles around... I'm amazed one of these clowns hasn't blown their dick off during one of these video shoots:

49 million views. WTF?

[JGJR]

It is a generalization. I’m sure there are rap bands that play actual instruments. But that the rare exception in the genre.

Nonsense. I've seen Cypress Hill play with so-called "real" instruments and if you don't know who The Pharcyde and The Roots (both are hip-hop bands) are, I'd give them a chance. The Roots have backed Jay-Z on his Unplugged album and tons of other people over the years, they did a record with Elvis Costello in 2013, etc. and I could go on.

Of course I know Pharcyde/Roots/Cypress Hill. I hate every single one of them, just as a matter of preference. There are a couple of Roots songs I like, but they are not at all hip hop songs (that Family song that was on Yo Gabba Gabba is pretty good). But total bullshit if you think rattling off these bands playing actual instruments somehow makes it the norm in modern rap music. They are, as I clearly said, the exception. And as such, I would give them a higher standing from 90% of their peers in terms of legitimate music. However, I still think they fucking suck. Cypress Hill? Are you kidding me?

a) I didn't say that was the norm
b) You could see how from your original statement, one would have no idea if you were familiar with those groups given "I'm sure there are rap bands that play actual instruments..." , right?

I'm not a particularly big Cypress Hill fan, but I thought they were really good the one time I saw them in the '90s. My favorite rap/hip-hop album ever is (cue old guy answer) It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back. I didn't really hear any rap I liked until that album blew me away in 1990. It was like hearing a hard rock or punk record (I was already deep into the former and just starting to get deep into the latter by that point), but they were just using other elements (MC, DJ, Bomb Squad production, primitive samplers, etc.) to achieve it. I know you probably hate that, too, but just saying.

[SamDBL]

It is a generalization. I’m sure there are rap bands that play actual instruments. But that the rare exception in the genre.

Nonsense. I've seen Cypress Hill play with so-called "real" instruments and if you don't know who The Pharcyde and The Roots (both are hip-hop bands) are, I'd give them a chance. The Roots have backed Jay-Z on his Unplugged album and tons of other people over the years, they did a record with Elvis Costello in 2013, etc. and I could go on.

Of course I know Pharcyde/Roots/Cypress Hill. I hate every single one of them, just as a matter of preference. There are a couple of Roots songs I like, but they are not at all hip hop songs (that Family song that was on Yo Gabba Gabba is pretty good). But total bullshit if you think rattling off these bands playing actual instruments somehow makes it the norm in modern rap music. They are, as I clearly said, the exception. And as such, I would give them a higher standing from 90% of their peers in terms of legitimate music. However, I still think they fucking suck. Cypress Hill? Are you kidding me?

a) I didn't say that was the norm
b) You could see how from your original statement, one would have no idea if you were familiar with those groups given "I'm sure there are rap bands that play actual instruments..." , right?

I'm not a particularly big Cypress Hill fan, but I thought they were really good the one time I saw them in the '90s. My favorite rap/hip-hop album ever is (cue old guy answer) It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back. I didn't really hear any rap I liked until that album blew me away in 1990. It was like hearing a hard rock or punk record (I was already deep into the former and just starting to get deep into the latter by that point), but they were just using other elements (MC, DJ, Bomb Squad production, primitive samplers, etc.) to achieve it. I know you probably hate that, too, but just saying.

A) Well then pointing it that some bands exist that break this stereotype is meaningless. Since my whole statement is a generalization against the genre, not the relatively few bands that defy the stereotype. "Bands that don't play instruments are lesser than bands that do"... "What about these bands that play instruments, though?"... I
B) I'm not sure how you'd get from "I'm sure there are some rap bands that play actual instruments" to "I have never heard these super popular rap bands that were played on the radio and in clubs every 5 minutes", but ok. In any case...

Yeah, I don't like that shit, either. But it's just my personal taste. I'm making a distinction between that, and worth a shit artistic music that requires some sort of skill to make. FWIW, most of the stuff you are mentioning is kind of old. I'd venture to say that a fair bit of it was still being recorded with analog technology. Which escapes my criticism, as I mentioned at the beginning of all of this. Music manufactured solely through modern digital means requires orders of magnitude less skill than even the most intermediate level band consisting of actual instruments. Definitive. Binding. Case closed. Gavel slammed.

[the mean]

[xxxMidgexxx]

[the mean]

[the mean]

[the mean]

[the mean]

[xxxMidgexxx]

[JGJR]

It is a generalization. I’m sure there are rap bands that play actual instruments. But that the rare exception in the genre.

Nonsense. I've seen Cypress Hill play with so-called "real" instruments and if you don't know who The Pharcyde and The Roots (both are hip-hop bands) are, I'd give them a chance. The Roots have backed Jay-Z on his Unplugged album and tons of other people over the years, they did a record with Elvis Costello in 2013, etc. and I could go on.

Of course I know Pharcyde/Roots/Cypress Hill. I hate every single one of them, just as a matter of preference. There are a couple of Roots songs I like, but they are not at all hip hop songs (that Family song that was on Yo Gabba Gabba is pretty good). But total bullshit if you think rattling off these bands playing actual instruments somehow makes it the norm in modern rap music. They are, as I clearly said, the exception. And as such, I would give them a higher standing from 90% of their peers in terms of legitimate music. However, I still think they fucking suck. Cypress Hill? Are you kidding me?

a) I didn't say that was the norm
b) You could see how from your original statement, one would have no idea if you were familiar with those groups given "I'm sure there are rap bands that play actual instruments..." , right?

I'm not a particularly big Cypress Hill fan, but I thought they were really good the one time I saw them in the '90s. My favorite rap/hip-hop album ever is (cue old guy answer) It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back. I didn't really hear any rap I liked until that album blew me away in 1990. It was like hearing a hard rock or punk record (I was already deep into the former and just starting to get deep into the latter by that point), but they were just using other elements (MC, DJ, Bomb Squad production, primitive samplers, etc.) to achieve it. I know you probably hate that, too, but just saying.

A) Well then pointing it that some bands exist that break this stereotype is meaningless. Since my whole statement is a generalization against the genre, not the relatively few bands that defy the stereotype. "Bands that don't play instruments are lesser than bands that do"... "What about these bands that play instruments, though?"... I
B) I'm not sure how you'd get from "I'm sure there are some rap bands that play actual instruments" to "I have never heard these super popular rap bands that were played on the radio and in clubs every 5 minutes", but ok. In any case...

Yeah, I don't like that shit, either. But it's just my personal taste. I'm making a distinction between that, and worth a shit artistic music that requires some sort of skill to make. FWIW, most of the stuff you are mentioning is kind of old. I'd venture to say that a fair bit of it was still being recorded with analog technology. Which escapes my criticism, as I mentioned at the beginning of all of this. Music manufactured solely through modern digital means requires orders of magnitude less skill than even the most intermediate level band consisting of actual instruments. Definitive. Binding. Case closed. Gavel slammed.

It's fine if you don't enjoy something for whatever your reasons are, of course, but your blanket criticism of an entire genre that happens to be the most popular musical form in the world for the last almost 30 years sounds like one of those folks in the '50s who were mortified that Elvis was shaking his hips and corrupting white teenagers or in the early to mid-'60s who railed against moptops after Beatlemania hit.

And yep, you're correct in that most of what I like is analog-based up to a point and old because (wait for it) I'm kinda old, too, but I'm content to let the kids have their own stuff and I don't have to get it. Believe me, I shrug my shoulders at a lot of stuff, but it is what it is. I think that's kind of healthy, actually, at least up to a point.

[SamDBL]

Again, the ‘you just sound like an old dude, maaaaaan. Get with it!’ Comeback is so fucking tired and silly. Guess what, I also didn’t like mc hammer and vanilla ice when I was young and on the cutting edge of contemporary music listening. What fucking difference does that make? Are you really trying to appeal to my sense of wanting to be hip in order to anchor your argument?
Anyway, for the 80th time, just because I don’t personally like something does not automatically make it garbage. What I’m saying, that no one really wants to address, is that there is a fundamental difference between music made by a computer program and without any instruments, and music made with musical Instruments. The infinite retort of ‘just because you don’t like it...’ makes absolutely no sense in relation to the point I’m making. I’m used to this board dodging super obvious points with non-sequitors and straw men when it comes to political discourse. But I can’t believe it carries over into hip hop discussions, too.

[the mean]

[JGJR]

Again, the ‘you just sound like an old dude, maaaaaan. Get with it!’ Comeback is so fucking tired and silly. Guess what, I also didn’t like mc hammer and vanilla ice when I was young and on the cutting edge of contemporary music listening. What fucking difference does that make? Are you really trying to appeal to my sense of wanting to be hip in order to anchor your argument?
Anyway, for the 80th time, just because I don’t personally like something does not automatically make it garbage. What I’m saying, that no one really wants to address, is that there is a fundamental difference between music made by a computer program and without any instruments, and music made with musical Instruments. The infinite retort of ‘just because you don’t like it...’ makes absolutely no sense in relation to the point I’m making. I’m used to this board dodging super obvious points with non-sequitors and straw men when it comes to political discourse. But I can’t believe it carries over into hip hop discussions, too.

It's the truth, something I know you don't particularly want to deal with or care about if it suits your biases. Hammer and Vanilla Ice? GTFOOH. Those are your examples? During the same era, PE, De La Soul, Tribe, Beasties, NWA, Gang Starr, et al. were all making golden age-era classics. My argument about hipness was exactly the opposite. Please re-read what I wrote. I wasn't trying to insult you, just saying how you come off.

But if you want to go there, with the full disclosure that you are a professional musician and I am not, I see no difference and view it all as an instrument. I've never tried to compose something using either a guitar or digital tools, so I am not the correct person to ask about this topic. I just think that the value of these things is purely subjective and personal; I don't believe there's a right and a wrong here. This is different from my personal preferences, of course.

[SamDBL]

Again, the ‘you just sound like an old dude, maaaaaan. Get with it!’ Comeback is so fucking tired and silly. Guess what, I also didn’t like mc hammer and vanilla ice when I was young and on the cutting edge of contemporary music listening. What fucking difference does that make? Are you really trying to appeal to my sense of wanting to be hip in order to anchor your argument?
Anyway, for the 80th time, just because I don’t personally like something does not automatically make it garbage. What I’m saying, that no one really wants to address, is that there is a fundamental difference between music made by a computer program and without any instruments, and music made with musical Instruments. The infinite retort of ‘just because you don’t like it...’ makes absolutely no sense in relation to the point I’m making. I’m used to this board dodging super obvious points with non-sequitors and straw men when it comes to political discourse. But I can’t believe it carries over into hip hop discussions, too.

It's the truth, something I know you don't particularly want to deal with or care about if it suits your biases. Hammer and Vanilla Ice? GTFOOH. Those are your examples? During the same era, PE, De La Soul, Tribe, Beasties, NWA, Gang Starr, et al. were all making golden age-era classics. My argument about hipness was exactly the opposite. Please re-read what I wrote. I wasn't trying to insult you, just saying how you come off.

But if you want to go there, with the full disclosure that you are a professional musician and I am not, I see no difference and view it all as an instrument. I've never tried to compose something using either a guitar or digital tools, so I am not the correct person to ask about this topic. I just think that the value of these things is purely subjective and personal; I don't believe there's a right and a wrong here. This is different from my personal preferences, of course.

I was being facetious in citing MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice. Yes, I know the supposed 'greats' of the era... NWA, TCQ, etc... It didn't appeal to me then, or now. I don't take it as an insult, I just think it's a weak come back. I see it *constantly* on other boards as well... the gear page I post on is full of 45+ rock fans talking about how Van Halen blows away Greta Van Fleet and John Mayer.. and other 45+ year olds sniping them for being too old and out of touch. It just doesn't make any sense. If you are defending something, defend it. 'If it's too loud, yer too old!' is not a defense.

Me not liking rap = purely subjective. Pointing out a difference between music made with real instruments and music made with samples on a computer = objective. FWIW, I don't even hate all electronic music. I like plenty of weird synth stuff... tangerine dream and throbbing gristle come to mind. I don't happen to like the end result of rap production, is all. BUT I still think the case is totally solid that DAW made music is a different thing *in some way* than music made on traditional instruments. We can debate what exactly that difference is and what it means in the grand scheme. But yeah, it's a different discipline.

[JGJR]

Again, the ‘you just sound like an old dude, maaaaaan. Get with it!’ Comeback is so fucking tired and silly. Guess what, I also didn’t like mc hammer and vanilla ice when I was young and on the cutting edge of contemporary music listening. What fucking difference does that make? Are you really trying to appeal to my sense of wanting to be hip in order to anchor your argument?
Anyway, for the 80th time, just because I don’t personally like something does not automatically make it garbage. What I’m saying, that no one really wants to address, is that there is a fundamental difference between music made by a computer program and without any instruments, and music made with musical Instruments. The infinite retort of ‘just because you don’t like it...’ makes absolutely no sense in relation to the point I’m making. I’m used to this board dodging super obvious points with non-sequitors and straw men when it comes to political discourse. But I can’t believe it carries over into hip hop discussions, too.

It's the truth, something I know you don't particularly want to deal with or care about if it suits your biases. Hammer and Vanilla Ice? GTFOOH. Those are your examples? During the same era, PE, De La Soul, Tribe, Beasties, NWA, Gang Starr, et al. were all making golden age-era classics. My argument about hipness was exactly the opposite. Please re-read what I wrote. I wasn't trying to insult you, just saying how you come off.

But if you want to go there, with the full disclosure that you are a professional musician and I am not, I see no difference and view it all as an instrument. I've never tried to compose something using either a guitar or digital tools, so I am not the correct person to ask about this topic. I just think that the value of these things is purely subjective and personal; I don't believe there's a right and a wrong here. This is different from my personal preferences, of course.

I was being facetious in citing MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice. Yes, I know the supposed 'greats' of the era... NWA, TCQ, etc... It didn't appeal to me then, or now. I don't take it as an insult, I just think it's a weak come back. I see it *constantly* on other boards as well... the gear page I post on is full of 45+ rock fans talking about how Van Halen blows away Greta Van Fleet and John Mayer.. and other 45+ year olds sniping them for being too old and out of touch. It just doesn't make any sense. If you are defending something, defend it. 'If it's too loud, yer too old!' is not a defense.

Me not liking rap = purely subjective. Pointing out a difference between music made with real instruments and music made with samples on a computer = objective. FWIW, I don't even hate all electronic music. I like plenty of weird synth stuff... tangerine dream and throbbing gristle come to mind. I don't happen to like the end result of rap production, is all. BUT I still think the case is totally solid that DAW made music is a different thing *in some way* than music made on traditional instruments. We can debate what exactly that difference is and what it means in the grand scheme. But yeah, it's a different discipline.

If that's all you were saying, then sure, but you extended it way beyond that to hyperbole that all rap sucks, it's all bitches and hos or whatever, made fun of late '80s graffiti style artwork, et al. That's really what I took issue with, but whatever.

I'd rather talk about the unassailable fact that VH is about 100,000 better than Greta Van Fleet. Those folks just must not have functioning ears whatever age they are. And John Mayer? Really? WTF? I don't even understand how he even factors in that discussion. He doesn't play hard rock.

Incidentally, I had a discussion the other day about VH with a fellow fan (a bigger one than myself, admittedly, but we are both fans) and he thinks that when their fanbase dies off, they won't be popular like other bands of that era like AC/DC who have transcended it and have a younger/multi-generational audience. I'm not sure if he's right. What do you think? Judging by that message board interaction, he may be on to something.

[SamDBL]

Well I do hate all rap, I hate the lingo, I hate the delivery, I hate the aesthetic, I hate the message 90% of the time, I hate how invasive it’s become with other forms of music that I *do* like (rapcore, rap metal, rap country, etc) and I basically hate how I have to cross paths with it in some form or another at least once a day because it so dominates pop culture (much the same way that I hated that I was always being beaten over the head with hair metal in the 80s). But, all that is subjective. The only objective point I have is that the *music* side of rap *mostly* relies on beats cut, pasted and looped with various sound effects dropped in on a computer which will do 90% of the work. When the technical side of art becomes so easy to master that a small child could do it, then I think that art loses its value to some degree. Lastly, music done with only virtual instruments is, well, virtual music. In the same way that a video game is a facsimile of real life.
Van Halen is easily in the same iconic status as ac/dc, Metallica, Jimi Hendrix and Black Sabbath. There will always be a reverence for them from some segment, imo. I don’t think the Hagar stuff ages so well. But the first four albums... as long as hard rock music is even remotely a thing... will always be recognized as bedrocks to the genre. I do wonder about if current bands will achieve that status. I think it’s universally agreed that the days of the stadium bands (with a few exceptions) are over. Mainly due to how music is consumed now, I think. Instead of the majority of the population listening to the same few radio stations, everyone just does the totally personalized streaming thing now. So audiences are really sub-divided. I don’t know who the equivalent to U2 or Led Zeppelin in today’s market is. I think Taylor Swift might be the only artist on par with that stadium level. Long story short, I don’t know that any artists in the streaming age will have the mass audience needed to propel them to that *icon* status. Where, in 30 years, people that haven’t yet been born will flock to them as we see with Iron Maiden, Metallica, etc.

[patient_ot]

I'd rather talk about the unassailable fact that VH is about 100,000 better than Greta Van Fleet. Those folks just must not have functioning ears whatever age they are. And John Mayer? Really? WTF? I don't even understand how he even factors in that discussion. He doesn't play hard rock.

Incidentally, I had a discussion the other day about VH with a fellow fan (a bigger one than myself, admittedly, but we are both fans) and he thinks that when their fanbase dies off, they won't be popular like other bands of that era like AC/DC who have transcended it and have a younger/multi-generational audience. I'm not sure if he's right. What do you think? Judging by that message board interaction, he may be on to something.

The difference between VH and AC/DC is that when AC/DC switched singers, fans largely accepted Brian Johnson. Many VH fans NEVER accepted Van Hagar.

AC/DC also largely stuck to the same style of music they started with, while VH became more poppy and mainstream over time. I think the Roth-era VH records (esp. the first 4) will endure over time, even if they go through periods of not being "cool" among the younger set.

I genuinely thought that at some point the whole hair metal/cock rock thing would die out completely and it kinda did for awhile. But then I see younger folks that weren't around for that scene posting records by Motley Crue and Ratt and Dokken on social media and I know I was wrong. I basically grew up hearing a lot of that music along with stereotypical classic rock radio. For a long time I didn't want to listen to it anymore but will play those albums occasionally when the mood strikes.

I couldn't even name one song by GVF or Mayer. The stuff I heard by GVF sucked to me, too much bland revival hard rock. I'd rather just listen to the real thing, again, when the mood strikes.

[jaybird]

Speaking of Van Halen's legacy going forward, there's this:

[JGJR]

I genuinely thought that at some point the whole hair metal/cock rock thing would die out completely and it kinda did for awhile. But then I see younger folks that weren't around for that scene posting records by Motley Crue and Ratt and Dokken on social media and I know I was wrong. I basically grew up hearing a lot of that music along with stereotypical classic rock radio. For a long time I didn't want to listen to it anymore but will play those albums occasionally when the mood strikes.

I couldn't even name one song by GVF or Mayer. The stuff I heard by GVF sucked to me, too much bland revival hard rock. I'd rather just listen to the real thing, again, when the mood strikes.

This is pretty much my exact experience as well. I can only name one John Mayer song because it was so ubiquitous in the early 2000s. I think you all know the one. It's an awful song. I love a lot of the indie and garage/post-punk/shoegaze revival stuff from the era and so it was 180 degrees from where I was musically then anyway.

[SamDBL]

I definitely think the Hagar stuff may get left to the annals of history (even though, technically, they were even bigger with him). I just think the legacy of the Roth albums will keep them alive for anyone interested in that type of music for decades to come. Also, the legacy of EVH as a guitar player dwarfs pretty much every band we have discussed in terms of historic significance. He is in a class all his own right beside Jimi Hendrix. So there is the added factor of any young people getting serious about guitar (fewer and fewer, I know) will have to pass through that portal and at least acknowledge the significance.
John Mayer: I actually love his playing but hate his music and singing. I could watch his little informal noodling vids all day long. But I can’t make it through one song.

[SamDBL]

Also: KISS. Similarly went through shit era that people scoff at. That still packin me in based on the legacy of their strongest period. I think that’s analogous to the Hagar VH years.

[JGJR]

Also: KISS. Similarly went through shit era that people scoff at. That still packin me in based on the legacy of their strongest period. I think that’s analogous to the Hagar VH years.

I don't think all of that era is bad by any means. I really dig Creatures of the Night and even Lick It up is a lot heavier than people give it credit for, just to use a few examples. That said, I don't think I would ever put on anything past Creatures to listen to for pleasure and of course the best era is '73-'79. I'm a casual enough fan that this comp suffices much of the time for me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greatest_Kiss

[jaybird]

So... the AstroWorld disaster...


Obviously crowd crushes and human stampedes resulting in death and injury have occurred at all sorts of events with huge attendance... rock concerts, soccer games, even religious festivals like the Haj in Mecca etc... but honestly, imagine suffocating to death while some auto-tuned dipshit blares on at deafening volume and this is the last thing you see as you drift into the abyss:






Gotta admit, pretty badass visual... i bet Glenn wishes he had thought of something similar for the Misfits lightshow for "20 Eyes"

[SamDBL]

So... the AstroWorld disaster...


Obviously crowd crushes and human stampedes resulting in death and injury have occurred at all sorts of events with huge attendance... rock concerts, soccer games, even religious festivals like the Haj in Mecca etc... but honestly, imagine suffocating to death while some auto-tuned dipshit blares on at deafening volume and this is the last thing you see as you drift into the abyss:






Gotta admit, pretty badass visual... i bet Glenn wishes he had thought of something similar for the Misfits lightshow for "20 Eyes"

I *think* I remember a girl getting crushed to death on one of the Warped Tour shows we did back in the day. What a way to go.