Rap sux.

[SamDBL]

Again, there may be some level of artistry involved, which distinguish 'good' from 'bad' within the genre (even that is up for debate). But there are no musical instruments being played, by and large. Therefore, no musicianship is present. Therefore, if you prefer to hear music played on actual instruments, this is not the genre for you.

[kel]

I dislike the genre.

Probably just for the sake of debate, I would, however, posit that "musicianship" and "instruments" are -like most art- flexible terms.

If someone chooses to use drum machines, samples, industrial noises, and such as their "instruments", making a piece of art out of existing art that is different (note I didn't say "greater than") than the whole/original... then I guess that's their thing. There's obviously some technical skills required in programming percussion devices. It may lean even more past skills and towards "talent" if someone can get machinery making modern music and still be open hearted.

A drum circle of people banging on paint buckets doesn't have much in the way of instruments, but it can be quite evolved.

That said, the sadly prolific themes of an awful lot of rap (constant braggadocio, foul-mouthed sexist and racist lyrics, glorification of crime, etc.) turns me off even if I *did* like the 4/4 beats of an Roland 808 machine set to loop.

[lewdd]

[xxxMidgexxx]

Again, there may be some level of artistry involved

No. There is no level of artistry. You had it right the first time. Rap sucks. It sucks shit and should be destroyed.

[SamDBL]

No, calling a computer program an instrument does not qualify it as such. It's as morertophorical as saying a recording studio is a musical instrument. No it isn't.

[xxxMidgexxx]

No, calling a computer program an instrument does not qualify it as such. It's as morertophorical as saying a recording studio is a musical instrument. No it isn't.

I don't agree with that really. Programmers can still be creative without using conventional instruments and just using software, live cut vocals, etc.. as in house/u-dub, ambient.

Rap just sucks as a sound/art form. I could deal with a lot of beats and backdrops. I actually like some of them. But when those assholes open their mouths, then its all over for me.

If some asshole opens his mouth to sing, it better be punk rock or I'm outta here.

[lewdd]

did you start drinking again

[SamDBL]

But saying a musical instrument is anything you create music is too broad. You are not playing an instrument in any real sense of the term when you cut and paste stuff around on a computer. As stated, there is an artistic aspect to that. But it is not playing an instrument when you are using protools, or whatever.

[xxxMidgexxx]

Hence the definition of 'genre'. ie: EDM artists never claimed to be of Coltraine's skill for the instrument.

'All this machinery making modern music can still be open hearted'.

Except rap, which just sucks.

[lewdd]

Does this count as rap?

[kel]

But saying a musical instrument is anything you create music is too broad. You are not playing an instrument in any real sense of the term when you cut and paste stuff around on a computer. As stated, there is an artistic aspect to that. But it is not playing an instrument when you are using protools, or whatever.

Does your wide brush also paint Industrial genre bands this way?

I'm not terribly familiar in the type, but I think of Ministry, NIN, etc. using samples of factory machine sounds on loops. Those examples probably lend themselves to a spurious comeback, because there was some distorted guitar played over it, but I'm sure there's plenty of Industrial bands that were/are 100% sequenced/"fake" instruments.

It's as morertophorical as saying a recording studio is a musical instrument. No it isn't.

I had to look up "moretophorical".

But, weird coincidence, I was just reading an article last night about Zepplin's "Houses of the Holy" where they used that phrase... that Page was expanding his experimental palett by "using the recording studio as a musical instrument." The Beatles were certainly known for using the mixing board, tape loops, etc. as "instruments" in their own right. Sure, I'd counter that some analog traditional instrument signal was fed into the rotating Leslie speaker and backwards-tape looped through an echo machine, but... Shrug.

I must be bored to spar on this subject, because I truly detest rap music and would never argue it's GOOD. I just am open to allowing for use of whatever "instrument" happens to let out someone's artistic expression, whether or not it is plucked, strummed, hit with a stick, input on a keyboard, whistled, blown across a reed, tipped over like a rainstick, or not even touched at all like a theremin.

[version sound]

So, I guess you guys consider singers who don’t play an instrument artistic deadweight?

[target]

I’m a fan!

[kel]

So, I guess you guys consider singers who don’t play an instrument artistic deadweight?

An excellent point. I should have included "Gregorian chanted" into my list of inputs.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2S_2gxxTnQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHDZik_yqqk

[SamDBL]

But saying a musical instrument is anything you create music is too broad. You are not playing an instrument in any real sense of the term when you cut and paste stuff around on a computer. As stated, there is an artistic aspect to that. But it is not playing an instrument when you are using protools, or whatever.

Does your wide brush also paint Industrial genre bands this way?

I'm not terribly familiar in the type, but I think of Ministry, NIN, etc. using samples of factory machine sounds on loops. Those examples probably lend themselves to a spurious comeback, because there was some distorted guitar played over it, but I'm sure there's plenty of Industrial bands that were/are 100% sequenced/"fake" instruments.

It's as morertophorical as saying a recording studio is a musical instrument. No it isn't.

I had to look up "moretophorical".

But, weird coincidence, I was just reading an article last night about Zepplin's "Houses of the Holy" where they used that phrase... that Page was expanding his experimental palett by "using the recording studio as a musical instrument." The Beatles were certainly known for using the mixing board, tape loops, etc. as "instruments" in their own right. Sure, I'd counter that some analog traditional instrument signal was fed into the rotating Leslie speaker and backwards-tape looped through an echo machine, but... Shrug.

I must be bored to spar on this subject, because I truly detest rap music and would never argue it's GOOD. I just am open to allowing for use of whatever "instrument" happens to let out someone's artistic expression, whether or not it is plucked, strummed, hit with a stick, input on a keyboard, whistled, blown across a reed, tipped over like a rainstick, or not even touched at all like a theremin.

It is a generalization. I’m sure there are rap bands that play actual instruments. But that the rare exception in the genre. The majority of the music in bands like ministry and nin is played on actual instruments, so I don’t see how that even comes close to being analogous to what I’m talking about.

Using something ‘as an instrument’ is a really clumsy catch-all metaphor that gets abused a ton.

Just as tapping on the steering wheel doesn’t qualify your car as an instrument except in the most base, technical sense of the term, a DAW is also not an instrument in the same way that a trombone or violin is. I’m not saying you can’t create art from mediums other than musical instrumentation... I’m saying that it’s such a different project that I think it should be classified differently. Radically differently.

[SamDBL]

So, I guess you guys consider singers who don’t play an instrument artistic deadweight?

Vocals are in a league of their own. Whereas someone that plays, say, guitar at beginner level is way more fit to be called a ‘musician’ than a person that makes music solely with the use of a daw... that’s not the case with a voice. A well-trained voice is an instrument in pretty much the most traditional and purest sense. However, a bad singer is back to being on par with the computer programmer. Being that we can all speak since age 3/4/5, it takes absolutely no discernible effort to sing badly. In that anyone can do it at any time. In fact, singing badly (which anyone can do at any time) actually takes *less* effort than the couple of hours you’d have to put in to learn how to cut and paste samples on a daw.

So, Freddie Mercury - actual musician just for singing the way he did
Darby Crash - pretty much dead weight, musically.

[xxxMidgexxx]

So, I guess you guys consider singers who don’t play an instrument artistic deadweight?

Not at all. It's just that rap sucks. Just trying to stick with the topic.

[jaybird]

Three nebbish-y Jews made the greatest hip-hop album of all time.

[gregpolard]

This thread is very "old white guy"

[jaybird]

This thread is very "old white guy"

This whole board is very "old white guy"... I mean, you're like 40 and probably the youngest person here.

So, yeah. Guilty as charged.

[xxxMidgexxx]

Three nebbish-y Jews made the greatest hip-hop album of all time.

I will say this. As much as I do not like rap at all, THAT is a decent album. But its' because it draws from a diverse variety of musical genres and moods. It muddies up the term 'rap' and that's the only way I could like it. There's some jazz crossing over...and the writing is bizarre.

[xxxMidgexxx]

This thread is very "old white guy"

So??? Do you not like white people??

[target]

Three nebbish-y Jews made the greatest hip-hop album of all time.

correction: the greatest rap album: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyPwEm_ ... SIuVc1Dfrx

[xxxMidgexxx]

This thread is very "old white guy"

This whole board is very "old white guy"... I mean, you're like 40 and probably the youngest person here.

So, yeah. Guilty as charged.

[the mean]

I'm ignoring the old white guy complaining and just posting random rap songs that I like.

[the mean]

[the mean]

[the mean]

[the mean]

[the mean]

[the mean]

[the mean]

One more for now.

[SamDBL]

How I came to this conclusion was some rap video came across my feed. I didn't like it, of course. But I did find it objectively better than, say, anything by Drake or Kanye West. The lyrics were way more clever. The delivery of the lyrics was bizarre, and therefore kind of unpredictable, and therefore more interesting. The video itself wasn't offensively terrible. But there was still something about it that I intuitively knew made it lesser than other forms of music. And that thing was that there were no instruments being played, of course. Just programmed samples of beats put into loops. You may *like* the final product as a listener. But there's not much skillfulness to it beyond maybe the lyrics, even in the best of cases.

[gregpolard]

This thread is very "old white guy"

So??? Do you not like white people??

Not really, no.

[xxxMidgexxx]

This thread is very "old white guy"

So??? Do you not like white people??

Not really, no.

Is it....some sort....of self loathing?

PS: Racist much?

[xxxMidgexxx]

I'm ignoring the old white guy complaining..

A good demonstration of 'ignoring' something would be not posting anything at all. Just sayin.

Not to mention that your statement pretty much qualifies as a racist one.

[Mark T.]

[SamDBL]

So basically what we're saying is that gamers playing a golfing video game against each other has the same legitimacy as an actual golf tournament played by actual golfers with actual golf clubs on an actual golf course.

Virtual music. That's what rap is.

[gregpolard]

This thread is very "old white guy"

So??? Do you not like white people??

Not really, no.

Is it....some sort....of self loathing?

PS: Racist much?

Go listen to some hip hop and call me in the morning.

[xxxMidgexxx]

This thread is very "old white guy"

So??? Do you not like white people??

Not really, no.

Is it....some sort....of self loathing?

PS: Racist much?

Go listen to some hip hop and call me in the morning.

Hi Greg. NO!

[xxxMidgexxx]

Its the same old scenario. Once someone says they hate rap, they're automatically a racist. Even though race was nowhere to be found within the topic. The ultra lib PC thugs conveniently add race to the equation.

[gregpolard]

Its the same old scenario. Once someone says they hate rap, they're automatically a racist. Even though race was nowhere to be found within the topic. The ultra lib PC thugs conveniently add race to the equation.

Who said you were racist? You asked if *I* was lol

[xxxMidgexxx]

Its the same old scenario. Once someone says they hate rap, they're automatically a racist. Even though race was nowhere to be found within the topic. The ultra lib PC thugs conveniently add race to the equation.

Who said you were racist? You asked if *I* was lol

LMFAO...WELP...Who exactly were you referring to with this one:

"This thread is very "old white guy"

[SamDBL]

I always find the 'you're old' knee jerk from old guys in these discussions to be just pitiful. I always picture the person that levels it having salt/pepper hair with a baseball hat cocked sideways and a flavor flav clock necklace that skateboards to work typing it. They also say stuff like 'bruh' to their kids at dinner.

[gregpolard]

Its the same old scenario. Once someone says they hate rap, they're automatically a racist. Even though race was nowhere to be found within the topic. The ultra lib PC thugs conveniently add race to the equation.

Who said you were racist? You asked if *I* was lol

LMFAO...WELP...Who exactly were you referring to with this one:

"This thread is very "old white guy"

Def read this :

https://www.aclrc.com/myth-of-reverse-racism

[gregpolard]

I always find the 'you're old' knee jerk from old guys in these discussions to be just pitiful. I always picture the person that levels it having salt/pepper hair with a baseball hat cocked sideways and a flavor flav clock necklace that skateboards to work typing it. They also say stuff like 'bruh' to their kids at dinner.

Yeah, that’s me to a T

[xxxMidgexxx]

Its the same old scenario. Once someone says they hate rap, they're automatically a racist. Even though race was nowhere to be found within the topic. The ultra lib PC thugs conveniently add race to the equation.

Who said you were racist? You asked if *I* was lol

LMFAO...WELP...Who exactly were you referring to with this one:

"This thread is very "old white guy"

Def read this :

https://www.aclrc.com/myth-of-reverse-racism

LMFAO....
So let me get this straight. You can call someone an 'old white guy' strictly because they don't like rap, and defend yourself by posting a 'reverse racism is not a thing' website even though you can't justify making the ORIGINAL comment in the first place.



Go listen to some Marillion and call me in the morning, Greg. LOL

[gregpolard]

Its the same old scenario. Once someone says they hate rap, they're automatically a racist. Even though race was nowhere to be found within the topic. The ultra lib PC thugs conveniently add race to the equation.

Who said you were racist? You asked if *I* was lol

LMFAO...WELP...Who exactly were you referring to with this one:

"This thread is very "old white guy"

Def read this :

https://www.aclrc.com/myth-of-reverse-racism

LMFAO....
So let me get this straight. You can call someone an 'old white guy' strictly because they don't like rap, and defend yourself by posting a 'reverse racism is not a thing' website even though you can't justify making the ORIGINAL comment in the first place.



Go listen to some Marillion and call me in the morning, Greg. LOL

I quoted the wrong text in reply. I meant to quote the one where you said me joking that I didn't care for white people was racist. I blew it.

[gregpolard]

Also, given by what I post about on here and other social media outlets....it's pretty clear I don't listen to much rap at all. But I also don't think that it requires no talent, and there is rap that I like so I won't write off the genre.

[the mean]