can we talk about Saturdays Madball/Murphys Law show in NYC

[jaybird]

I like the S/T Murphy's Law album, and I like Kraut and maybe a couple Cro-Mags songs.... that's about as much NYHC as I can tolerate.

[JGJR]

Apparently, the dudes in Side by Side have really big feet.

You know what they say. Big feet, big Nikes (or Adidas or...)

[BAIN]

totally honest post

loved growing up listening to hardcore bands like GB, Bold, Judge, Inside Out, Chain of Strength, Supertouch, Insted, etc... Still listen

So many more but when I finally was introduced to the scene live in concert it was just full of douchebaggery

Matinees at CBs was this entitled boys club that with each year got worse and worse

To this day I was forever changed and so thankful to have been brought to ABC no Rio by a friend and introduced to a real scene that is still w me to this day

All the local bands = Citizens Arrest, Born Against, GO!, Merel, Rorschach, Native Nod, Bad Trip, Inflatable Children, Burn and the 100s of bands that came through that amazing space starting upstairs, then down, then back up again

I would have walked away from this music if there wasn't another door to choose

Still tight friends with so many people through this scene because of that decision.

A reason why I type on this board now

I wasn't fortunate to hear the DC scene when it happened but through people I met choosing the path less traveled I learned about so many amazing bands

[xxxHunterxxx]

totally honest post

loved growing up listening to hardcore bands like GB, Bold, Judge, Inside Out, Chain of Strength, Supertouch, Insted, etc... Still listen

So many more but when I finally was introduced to the scene live in concert it was just full of douchebaggery

Matinees at CBs was this entitled boys club that with each year got worse and worse

To this day I was forever changed and so thankful to have been brought to ABC no Rio by a friend and introduced to a real scene that is still w me to this day

All the local bands = Citizens Arrest, Born Against, GO!, Merel, Rorschach, Native Nod, Bad Trip, Inflatable Children, Burn and the 100s of bands that came through that amazing space starting upstairs, then down, then back up again

I would have walked away from this music if there wasn't another door to choose

Still tight friends with so many people through this scene because of that decision.

A reason why I type on this board now

I wasn't fortunate to hear the DC scene when it happened but through people I met choosing the path less traveled I learned about so many amazing bands

Cool. I took a break from hardcore for most of the 90s so I totally missed that ABC No Rio scene (and the Lookout Records stuff, etc.). It sounds like I whiffed on something great.

[SamDBL]

Has anyone ever heard of an nyhc band called 'battered citizens'? From Albany, I think. I had a friend who was originally from NY, and would go see his dad over the Summer. He was a total NYHC devotee. He brought back a tshirt (that I traded him for) and a demo, I think. No one I've ever talked to has ever heard of them. Maybe they never actually played out. I have no idea. I just liked their name. I'm pretty sure they were just standard crew cut moshcore. But I don't really remember what they sounded like.

[SamDBL]

Nevermind. I just found their demo on youtube. As well as a clip from a reunion show, in which the singer has his hat cocked, says a bunch of 'yo represent!' shit between songs, and does that george jefferson walk/strut thing.

[xxxMidgexxx]

All the local bands = Citizens Arrest, Born Against, GO!, Merel, Rorschach, Native Nod, Bad Trip, Inflatable Children, Burn and the 100s of bands that came through that amazing space starting upstairs, then down, then back up again

Yup. Good times. I preferred that scene a lot more than the late CBs scene.

I remember seeing Offspring play in front of 15 people when the shows were brought upstairs again.

[SamDBL]

I will say that even though much of the music did not stand the test of time for me, I was always a bit envious of how active the scene was, there. I mean, we did alright and had plenty of fun in my little town. But NYHC must've been a hoot to be growing up in during that era.

[kel]

False equivalency out the wazoo here.

A hardcore show and people protesting cops killing an unarmed black man for no reason are not the same thing...

Comparing the show to 4/20 public weed smoking? That shit has always been stupid and does not help the cause of people who say they want legalization.

I'm not near NYC, but I would not have gone even if I was.

Ultimately, the CAUSE isn't important to the equivalency. The comparison made here is "groups of people congregated and either: a.) Didn't seem to get sick, or b.) Didn't draw ire from media/one political party about congregating". There's no value placed or questioned or equivalency attempted on WHY they congregated.

If someone has had it up to here with CAUSE "X" and someone else has had it with CAUSE "Y", then that's their concern and their right to protest about. (And it's someone else's right to counter-protest it if they want.)

Whether I find it palatable or agreeable to my beliefs/politics/values that someone else wants the ability to smoke weed, have an abortion, carry a firearm, play an outdoor concert, not wear a mask, fill-in-the-blank-hot-button-issue, etc. doesn't mitigate that person's rights to peaceably assemble and speak out in favor (or in opposition) of that cause in America.

I find it interesting that punk rock used to be thought of as generally anti-authority, anti-government. But there's definitely been a flavor switch to loving the State telling all people to conform to the State's views. This abandoning of one's individuality and thinking for oneself and taking responsibility for one's own actions in exchange for joining the me-too masses for "security" and belonging to a fashionable group is a curious development.

Oh, I can still hear Keith sneer Roger's lyrics...

Question authority
Have they the right to say how it should be?
Should one man be able to write it all down?
Half the time he can't tell right from wrong
Is this what you want to see?
Is this the way you want things to be?



But anyone that didn't feel right going made the right choice for themselves in not going -- if someone doesn't feel safe, or want to be somewhere, then... don't. If you do, do.

Like everyone's favorite punk archetype, Jefferson, paraphrased from the Latin "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."


God save the Queen.

[version sound]

Is Jimmy Gestapo wearing a toupee? I thought that dude was bald.

If you’re talking about the idiot in the Black Flag Matters shirt, it’s actually Springa.

[version sound]

I find it interesting that punk rock used to be thought of as generally anti-authority, anti-government. But there's definitely been a flavor switch to loving the State telling all people to conform to the State's views. This abandoning of one's individuality and thinking for oneself and taking responsibility for one's own actions in exchange for joining the me-too masses for "security" and belonging to a fashionable group is a curious development.

If by “the state” you mean “public health officials” and by “telling you to conform” you mean trying to inhibit the spread of a virus that’s killed 3.1 million people worldwide, then yeah, I’m a fucking sheep.

Being a super spreader does seem so much more punk rock, though. You can pledge allegiance to punk rock free thinkers like John Joseph, who thumb their noses at authority and spout truths they read on conspiracy theory websites and in the New York Post. Punk fucking rock.

[scannest]

And you know when these assholes get COVID they'll be expecting the best medical treatment available regardless of their own medical insurance situation (What sort of benefit plans are typically made available to bike messengers and bartenders?. I imagine they're not great). But sure, feel free to flip off the government and then leech off said government when it's to your benefit.

[JGJR]

totally honest post

loved growing up listening to hardcore bands like GB, Bold, Judge, Inside Out, Chain of Strength, Supertouch, Insted, etc... Still listen

So many more but when I finally was introduced to the scene live in concert it was just full of douchebaggery

Matinees at CBs was this entitled boys club that with each year got worse and worse

To this day I was forever changed and so thankful to have been brought to ABC no Rio by a friend and introduced to a real scene that is still w me to this day

All the local bands = Citizens Arrest, Born Against, GO!, Merel, Rorschach, Native Nod, Bad Trip, Inflatable Children, Burn and the 100s of bands that came through that amazing space starting upstairs, then down, then back up again

I would have walked away from this music if there wasn't another door to choose

Still tight friends with so many people through this scene because of that decision.

A reason why I type on this board now

I wasn't fortunate to hear the DC scene when it happened but through people I met choosing the path less traveled I learned about so many amazing bands

We must know some of the same folks and may have had this discussion years ago. I'm a little too late for that specific scene since I just started going to punk shows in '91 and didn't get to ABC until '93, but the post-ABC ethic and aesthetic and some of the folks involved were very influential on me, too, and I saw some of those bands back in the day, etc. specifically Rorschach and Native Nod. I tried to see Born Against in '91 and couldn't get a ride. I didn't get to see Citizens Arrest until the 2010 reunion.

[JGJR]

And you know when these assholes get COVID they'll be expecting the best medical treatment available regardless of their own medical insurance situation (What sort of benefit plans are typically made available to bike messengers and bartenders?. I imagine they're not great). But sure, feel free to flip off the government and then leech off said government when it's to your benefit.

I know that this is only tangential to your point and you're absolutely right to point out the hypocrisy at work here, but nevertheless, I do wish we lived in a society where even people who don't understand science or virus transmission or how vaccines work at all wouldn't have to worry about that shit, like you know, in every other developed/industrialized country in the entire world that has some form of government-run health care. I think if we did, though, there would be fewer of these assholes protesting mask regulations or whatever, though, so you know, prevention is better than cure, etc.

[SamDBL]

I took him to mean in a broader sense. Meaning that, as I’ve said before, this major shift to the left of the Democratic Party with so-called ‘progressivism’ embraces so much shit that was formerly solely within the purview of the most radical of punk rocker activist types. All rich people are evil, socialism is the way, everyone and everything is racist, cops are nazi pigs/defund the police, reparations, radical gender ideology, etc... these are all closing in on being totally mainstream concepts, now. So yeah... people that used to rail against the system by handing out fliers at anarcho crust festivals and living in squats are now seemingly on the same page as mega corporations like Nike, Amazon and Disney as well as the controlling millionaire political class. Basically, the cultural shift is almost making many items on the punk activist wish list in the majority mainstream. I agree that’s interesting.


As far as the above statement, I find it to be pretty lame. People like to brag and sloganeer about how much the well-being of others is such a massive priority for them. Then as soon as they perceive someone handles things differently, it pretty quickly turns to ‘I hope you get Covid and die, motherfucker’. First you assume that every person there is unvaccinated, for whatever reason. Then you assume that they all have low wage, unskilled jobs. Which, I’m sure you’d typically claim to be the ultimate advocate for poor people (even though in this case, you clearly meant for it to be an insult). Then you complain that they might get free healthcare... which of course under any other circumstance you’d be totally pushing for that. Yeah, it’d be ironic if some macho dude that didn’t get vaccinated also doesn’t wear a mask an goes to a crowded area to mosh with his buddies got COVID. I don’t think I’m quite as stoked on the possibility as you, though. Just like if someone got aids because they chose not to wear a rubber. Or got into a car wreck because they were looking at their phone. That’s how people get into hospitals probably most of the time. Irresponsible behavior. You, as a universal healthcare proponent, can’t really complain if every single person at this show gets COVID and gets free healthcare.

But of course, you *wouldnt* have the same attitude towards a person that got aids because they had unprotected sex or got cancer because they smoked. I doubt you’d revel in the irony of them all laying in hospital beds, complaining about the free healthcare they might get (like Archie Bunker), and calling them all stupid poor people. Why is that, I wonder?

[SamDBL]

And you know when these assholes get COVID they'll be expecting the best medical treatment available regardless of their own medical insurance situation (What sort of benefit plans are typically made available to bike messengers and bartenders?. I imagine they're not great). But sure, feel free to flip off the government and then leech off said government when it's to your benefit.

I know that this is only tangential to your point and you're absolutely right to point out the hypocrisy at work here, but nevertheless, I do wish we lived in a society where even people who don't understand science or virus transmission or how vaccines work at all wouldn't have to worry about that shit, like you know, in every other developed/industrialized country in the entire world that has some form of government-run health care. I think if we did, though, there would be fewer of these assholes protesting mask regulations or whatever, though, so you know, prevention is better than cure, etc.

At least you are consistent with this.

[JGJR]

And you know when these assholes get COVID they'll be expecting the best medical treatment available regardless of their own medical insurance situation (What sort of benefit plans are typically made available to bike messengers and bartenders?. I imagine they're not great). But sure, feel free to flip off the government and then leech off said government when it's to your benefit.

I know that this is only tangential to your point and you're absolutely right to point out the hypocrisy at work here, but nevertheless, I do wish we lived in a society where even people who don't understand science or virus transmission or how vaccines work at all wouldn't have to worry about that shit, like you know, in every other developed/industrialized country in the entire world that has some form of government-run health care. I think if we did, though, there would be fewer of these assholes protesting mask regulations or whatever, though, so you know, prevention is better than cure, etc.

At least you are consistent with this.

As opposed to what? The POV in the post I was responding to? I thought it came off a bit classist, too, FWIW, without perhaps intending to be that way. I won't speak for others here, but I'd hope that if it came to that, scannest or anyone else would be OK with them getting the health care services that should just be a basic human right. People on the internet talk a lot of shit (we all do), but ultimately that would be my hope.

[SamDBL]

And you know when these assholes get COVID they'll be expecting the best medical treatment available regardless of their own medical insurance situation (What sort of benefit plans are typically made available to bike messengers and bartenders?. I imagine they're not great). But sure, feel free to flip off the government and then leech off said government when it's to your benefit.

I know that this is only tangential to your point and you're absolutely right to point out the hypocrisy at work here, but nevertheless, I do wish we lived in a society where even people who don't understand science or virus transmission or how vaccines work at all wouldn't have to worry about that shit, like you know, in every other developed/industrialized country in the entire world that has some form of government-run health care. I think if we did, though, there would be fewer of these assholes protesting mask regulations or whatever, though, so you know, prevention is better than cure, etc.

At least you are consistent with this.

As opposed to what? The POV in the post I was responding to? I thought it came off a bit classist, too, FWIW, without perhaps intending to be that way. I won't speak for others here, but I'd hope that if it came to that, scannest or anyone else would be OK with them getting the health care services that should just be a basic human right. People on the internet talk a lot of shit (we all do), but ultimately that would be my hope.

As opposed to scannest’s post. Making the case that these guys are irresponsible, so it’s annoying that they might get free healthcare. Obviously that attitude doesn’t make sense from someone that is in favor of free healthcare for all. I mean, he also makes a dig about them being poor, low wage earners, which is also inconsistent with his other views on poverty. But really what I think he means to imply is that they are morally inferior to people that wear masks after they’ve been vaccinated, I guess. Which is silly and counter factual. Also, that they would typically rail against free healthcare (again, he is totally pulling that out of thin air) but then enjoy free healthcare if they got COVID. Ironic, yes. But it’s also the mirror position to his. No more, no less. I find *that* even more ironic.

Guess what, free healthcare for all would mean free healthcare for people that do dumb shit and say things you don’t agree with. You should be totally fine with that. Enthusiastic about it, even.

As I said, these kinds of things make the moral superiority of people that say things like ‘I wear two masks even after I got the shot because I care about people so much’ and ‘I would never use the phrase suck my dick because I’m such an empathetic humanitarian’. Pish posh. All it takes is some MAGA hats or meatheads with crew cuts skanking around in a parking lot to get these Mother Teresa’s to drop the mask and start saying how they *actually* feel about their fellow man. That’s all.

[JGJR]

And you know when these assholes get COVID they'll be expecting the best medical treatment available regardless of their own medical insurance situation (What sort of benefit plans are typically made available to bike messengers and bartenders?. I imagine they're not great). But sure, feel free to flip off the government and then leech off said government when it's to your benefit.

I know that this is only tangential to your point and you're absolutely right to point out the hypocrisy at work here, but nevertheless, I do wish we lived in a society where even people who don't understand science or virus transmission or how vaccines work at all wouldn't have to worry about that shit, like you know, in every other developed/industrialized country in the entire world that has some form of government-run health care. I think if we did, though, there would be fewer of these assholes protesting mask regulations or whatever, though, so you know, prevention is better than cure, etc.

At least you are consistent with this.

As opposed to what? The POV in the post I was responding to? I thought it came off a bit classist, too, FWIW, without perhaps intending to be that way. I won't speak for others here, but I'd hope that if it came to that, scannest or anyone else would be OK with them getting the health care services that should just be a basic human right. People on the internet talk a lot of shit (we all do), but ultimately that would be my hope.

As opposed to scannest’s post. Making the case that these guys are irresponsible, so it’s annoying that they might get free healthcare. Obviously that attitude doesn’t make sense from someone that is in favor of free healthcare for all. I mean, he also makes a dig about them being poor, low wage earners, which is also inconsistent with his other views on poverty. But really what I think he means to imply is that they are morally inferior to people that wear masks after they’ve been vaccinated, I guess. Which is silly and counter factual. Also, that they would typically rail against free healthcare (again, he is totally pulling that out of thin air) but then enjoy free healthcare if they got COVID. Ironic, yes. But it’s also the mirror position to his. No more, no less. I find *that* even more ironic.

Guess what, free healthcare for all would mean free healthcare for people that do dumb shit and say things you don’t agree with. You should be totally fine with that. Enthusiastic about it, even.

As I said, these kinds of things make the moral superiority of people that say things like ‘I wear two masks even after I got the shot because I care about people so much’ and ‘I would never use the phrase suck my dick because I’m such an empathetic humanitarian’. Pish posh. All it takes is some MAGA hats or meatheads with crew cuts skanking around in a parking lot to get these Mother Teresa’s to drop the mask and start saying how they *actually* feel about their fellow man. That’s all.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that from what I can discern, it appears that your real issue is with how you perceive advocates for things like universal healthcare, etc. behave, not with what we are actually advocating. Or am I wrong here?

[SamDBL]

And you know when these assholes get COVID they'll be expecting the best medical treatment available regardless of their own medical insurance situation (What sort of benefit plans are typically made available to bike messengers and bartenders?. I imagine they're not great). But sure, feel free to flip off the government and then leech off said government when it's to your benefit.

I know that this is only tangential to your point and you're absolutely right to point out the hypocrisy at work here, but nevertheless, I do wish we lived in a society where even people who don't understand science or virus transmission or how vaccines work at all wouldn't have to worry about that shit, like you know, in every other developed/industrialized country in the entire world that has some form of government-run health care. I think if we did, though, there would be fewer of these assholes protesting mask regulations or whatever, though, so you know, prevention is better than cure, etc.

At least you are consistent with this.

As opposed to what? The POV in the post I was responding to? I thought it came off a bit classist, too, FWIW, without perhaps intending to be that way. I won't speak for others here, but I'd hope that if it came to that, scannest or anyone else would be OK with them getting the health care services that should just be a basic human right. People on the internet talk a lot of shit (we all do), but ultimately that would be my hope.

As opposed to scannest’s post. Making the case that these guys are irresponsible, so it’s annoying that they might get free healthcare. Obviously that attitude doesn’t make sense from someone that is in favor of free healthcare for all. I mean, he also makes a dig about them being poor, low wage earners, which is also inconsistent with his other views on poverty. But really what I think he means to imply is that they are morally inferior to people that wear masks after they’ve been vaccinated, I guess. Which is silly and counter factual. Also, that they would typically rail against free healthcare (again, he is totally pulling that out of thin air) but then enjoy free healthcare if they got COVID. Ironic, yes. But it’s also the mirror position to his. No more, no less. I find *that* even more ironic.

Guess what, free healthcare for all would mean free healthcare for people that do dumb shit and say things you don’t agree with. You should be totally fine with that. Enthusiastic about it, even.

As I said, these kinds of things make the moral superiority of people that say things like ‘I wear two masks even after I got the shot because I care about people so much’ and ‘I would never use the phrase suck my dick because I’m such an empathetic humanitarian’. Pish posh. All it takes is some MAGA hats or meatheads with crew cuts skanking around in a parking lot to get these Mother Teresa’s to drop the mask and start saying how they *actually* feel about their fellow man. That’s all.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that from what I can discern, it appears that your real issue is with how you perceive advocates for things like universal healthcare, etc. behave, not with what we are actually advocating. Or am I wrong here?

Absolutely. In his post he didn’t say that he was in favor of denying healthcare to these guys. Just that it frustrated him. But it does speak to a larger issue, imo. Moral superiority on these issues, as opposed to the nuts and bolts logic of them, constantly takes center stage. It’s a problem. Because so many arguments go like this:

‘Dude, just do this thing to be a caring human being’
‘But I don’t want to because _________’
‘Then this conversation is over because you are a bad person and I am a great person’

I hated when Christian fundamentalists threw these sorts of flawed moral judgements around. And I hate it when political discussions go that way, too. It’s hollow and counter productive. So yeah, when someone that constantly talks about ‘do this and that in order to be a good person, like me’ suddenly switches gears to ‘fuck these poor, dumb motherfuckers leeching off the system’ or ‘everyone but me is racist. Everything is racist. Stop being racist’ resorts to calling black people ‘uncle tom’s at the drop of a dime... I feel the need to mention it.

I have an actual question for you guys:
Is a person that continues to wears a mask after getting vaccinated morally superior to a person that gets vaccinated and then doesn’t wear a mask? Does the former person care about other people more than the second?

[gregpolard]

And you know when these assholes get COVID they'll be expecting the best medical treatment available regardless of their own medical insurance situation (What sort of benefit plans are typically made available to bike messengers and bartenders?. I imagine they're not great). But sure, feel free to flip off the government and then leech off said government when it's to your benefit.

I know that this is only tangential to your point and you're absolutely right to point out the hypocrisy at work here, but nevertheless, I do wish we lived in a society where even people who don't understand science or virus transmission or how vaccines work at all wouldn't have to worry about that shit, like you know, in every other developed/industrialized country in the entire world that has some form of government-run health care. I think if we did, though, there would be fewer of these assholes protesting mask regulations or whatever, though, so you know, prevention is better than cure, etc.

At least you are consistent with this.

As opposed to what? The POV in the post I was responding to? I thought it came off a bit classist, too, FWIW, without perhaps intending to be that way. I won't speak for others here, but I'd hope that if it came to that, scannest or anyone else would be OK with them getting the health care services that should just be a basic human right. People on the internet talk a lot of shit (we all do), but ultimately that would be my hope.

As opposed to scannest’s post. Making the case that these guys are irresponsible, so it’s annoying that they might get free healthcare. Obviously that attitude doesn’t make sense from someone that is in favor of free healthcare for all. I mean, he also makes a dig about them being poor, low wage earners, which is also inconsistent with his other views on poverty. But really what I think he means to imply is that they are morally inferior to people that wear masks after they’ve been vaccinated, I guess. Which is silly and counter factual. Also, that they would typically rail against free healthcare (again, he is totally pulling that out of thin air) but then enjoy free healthcare if they got COVID. Ironic, yes. But it’s also the mirror position to his. No more, no less. I find *that* even more ironic.

Guess what, free healthcare for all would mean free healthcare for people that do dumb shit and say things you don’t agree with. You should be totally fine with that. Enthusiastic about it, even.

As I said, these kinds of things make the moral superiority of people that say things like ‘I wear two masks even after I got the shot because I care about people so much’ and ‘I would never use the phrase suck my dick because I’m such an empathetic humanitarian’. Pish posh. All it takes is some MAGA hats or meatheads with crew cuts skanking around in a parking lot to get these Mother Teresa’s to drop the mask and start saying how they *actually* feel about their fellow man. That’s all.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that from what I can discern, it appears that your real issue is with how you perceive advocates for things like universal healthcare, etc. behave, not with what we are actually advocating. Or am I wrong here?

Absolutely. In his post he didn’t say that he was in favor of denying healthcare to these guys. Just that it frustrated him. But it does speak to a larger issue, imo. Moral superiority on these issues, as opposed to the nuts and bolts logic of them, constantly takes center stage. It’s a problem. Because so many arguments go like this:

‘Dude, just do this thing to be a caring human being’
‘But I don’t want to because _________’
‘Then this conversation is over because you are a bad person and I am a great person’

I hated when Christian fundamentalists threw these sorts of flawed moral judgements around. And I hate it when political discussions go that way, too. It’s hollow and counter productive. So yeah, when someone that constantly talks about ‘do this and that in order to be a good person, like me’ suddenly switches gears to ‘fuck these poor, dumb motherfuckers leeching off the system’ or ‘everyone but me is racist. Everything is racist. Stop being racist’ resorts to calling black people ‘uncle tom’s at the drop of a dime... I feel the need to mention it.

I have an actual question for you guys:
Is a person that continues to wears a mask after getting vaccinated morally superior to a person that gets vaccinated and then doesn’t wear a mask? Does the former person care about other people more than the second?

Well, being that the vaccine doesn't mean that you can't carry the virus AND that masks are to prevent you giving it to others, I think it's safe to say that yes, the person wearing the mask does care more.

[SamDBL]

And you know when these assholes get COVID they'll be expecting the best medical treatment available regardless of their own medical insurance situation (What sort of benefit plans are typically made available to bike messengers and bartenders?. I imagine they're not great). But sure, feel free to flip off the government and then leech off said government when it's to your benefit.

I know that this is only tangential to your point and you're absolutely right to point out the hypocrisy at work here, but nevertheless, I do wish we lived in a society where even people who don't understand science or virus transmission or how vaccines work at all wouldn't have to worry about that shit, like you know, in every other developed/industrialized country in the entire world that has some form of government-run health care. I think if we did, though, there would be fewer of these assholes protesting mask regulations or whatever, though, so you know, prevention is better than cure, etc.

At least you are consistent with this.

As opposed to what? The POV in the post I was responding to? I thought it came off a bit classist, too, FWIW, without perhaps intending to be that way. I won't speak for others here, but I'd hope that if it came to that, scannest or anyone else would be OK with them getting the health care services that should just be a basic human right. People on the internet talk a lot of shit (we all do), but ultimately that would be my hope.

As opposed to scannest’s post. Making the case that these guys are irresponsible, so it’s annoying that they might get free healthcare. Obviously that attitude doesn’t make sense from someone that is in favor of free healthcare for all. I mean, he also makes a dig about them being poor, low wage earners, which is also inconsistent with his other views on poverty. But really what I think he means to imply is that they are morally inferior to people that wear masks after they’ve been vaccinated, I guess. Which is silly and counter factual. Also, that they would typically rail against free healthcare (again, he is totally pulling that out of thin air) but then enjoy free healthcare if they got COVID. Ironic, yes. But it’s also the mirror position to his. No more, no less. I find *that* even more ironic.

Guess what, free healthcare for all would mean free healthcare for people that do dumb shit and say things you don’t agree with. You should be totally fine with that. Enthusiastic about it, even.

As I said, these kinds of things make the moral superiority of people that say things like ‘I wear two masks even after I got the shot because I care about people so much’ and ‘I would never use the phrase suck my dick because I’m such an empathetic humanitarian’. Pish posh. All it takes is some MAGA hats or meatheads with crew cuts skanking around in a parking lot to get these Mother Teresa’s to drop the mask and start saying how they *actually* feel about their fellow man. That’s all.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that from what I can discern, it appears that your real issue is with how you perceive advocates for things like universal healthcare, etc. behave, not with what we are actually advocating. Or am I wrong here?

Absolutely. In his post he didn’t say that he was in favor of denying healthcare to these guys. Just that it frustrated him. But it does speak to a larger issue, imo. Moral superiority on these issues, as opposed to the nuts and bolts logic of them, constantly takes center stage. It’s a problem. Because so many arguments go like this:

‘Dude, just do this thing to be a caring human being’
‘But I don’t want to because _________’
‘Then this conversation is over because you are a bad person and I am a great person’

I hated when Christian fundamentalists threw these sorts of flawed moral judgements around. And I hate it when political discussions go that way, too. It’s hollow and counter productive. So yeah, when someone that constantly talks about ‘do this and that in order to be a good person, like me’ suddenly switches gears to ‘fuck these poor, dumb motherfuckers leeching off the system’ or ‘everyone but me is racist. Everything is racist. Stop being racist’ resorts to calling black people ‘uncle tom’s at the drop of a dime... I feel the need to mention it.

I have an actual question for you guys:
Is a person that continues to wears a mask after getting vaccinated morally superior to a person that gets vaccinated and then doesn’t wear a mask? Does the former person care about other people more than the second?

Well, being that the vaccine doesn't mean that you can't carry the virus AND that masks are to prevent you giving it to others, I think it's safe to say that yes, the person wearing the mask does care more.

Ok. So what about the person that wears two masks on top of the vaccination? Cares even more, I suppose?

[captain2man]

John Joseph & Cuz Joe are going to be on NYHC Chronicles today at 3 p.m. (EST).

Should be an interesting watch.

https://youtu.be/b1zFGaMdsIc

[JGJR]

II know this may come off more smug than I want it to, but I think it would help you (Sam) to focus less on what others are doing, moral superiority or inferiority, etc. (all subjective, etc. and besides, there are more gray areas there than you can shake a stick at and you can get bogged down so easily in those childish battles) and just think about what's best for yourself and those around you. Not just you, but in general.

[SamDBL]

II know this may come off more smug than I want it to, but I think it would help you (Sam) to focus less on what others are doing, moral superiority or inferiority, etc. (all subjective, etc. and besides, there are more gray areas there than you can shake a stick at and you can get bogged down so easily in those childish battles) and just think about what's best for yourself and those around you. Not just you, but in general.

I knew it would be taken that way. But that’s not the point I’m making. The moral calculations being made are inherently part of all of these arguments. Just as with, say, abortion. You can’t get anywhere with a catholic that believes life starts at conception because that’s when the soul enters the being. That is the end of that discussion, and you are a morally bereft heretic for having a differing opinion.

CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky had said that "vaccinated people do not carry the virus," but experts are saying to still use caution.

So you are basing your moral condemnation on others (conveniently propping up yourself in the process) based on an unproven, theoretical risk. Good for you, I guess. But any insistence on ‘just wear the damn mask’ because it’s the ‘right thing to do’ from someone making such a rash calculation on morality should be tossed in the shitter. And so it goes on any number of issues. You might *feel* as you’re a better person for making hollow gestures based on your own world view. But you’re not. By your own logic, I could be sitting here wearing three masks while I type this. Which would ultimately mean I’m literally a better person than you (unless you’re wearing four).

[JGJR]

So you are basing your moral condemnation on others (conveniently propping up yourself in the process) based on an unproven, theoretical risk. Good for you, I guess. But any insistence on ‘just wear the damn mask’ because it’s the ‘right thing to do’ from someone making such a rash calculation on morality should be tossed in the shitter. And so it goes on any number of issues. You might *feel* as you’re a better person for making hollow gestures based on your own world view. But you’re not. By your own logic, I could be sitting here wearing three masks while I type this. Which would ultimately mean I’m literally a better person than you (unless you’re wearing four).

I feel like this is going nowhere, but I'll just make one more point here. It's a piece of cloth. Someone can wear 10 if they want and I don't care.

[scannest]

Some of these comments bring this nugget of contemporary philosophy immediately to mind:

[SamDBL]

So you are basing your moral condemnation on others (conveniently propping up yourself in the process) based on an unproven, theoretical risk. Good for you, I guess. But any insistence on ‘just wear the damn mask’ because it’s the ‘right thing to do’ from someone making such a rash calculation on morality should be tossed in the shitter. And so it goes on any number of issues. You might *feel* as you’re a better person for making hollow gestures based on your own world view. But you’re not. By your own logic, I could be sitting here wearing three masks while I type this. Which would ultimately mean I’m literally a better person than you (unless you’re wearing four).

I feel like this is going nowhere, but I'll just make one more point here. It's a piece of cloth. Someone can wear 10 if they want and I don't care.

But by the logic that decreasing the odds of a theoretical risk mask you a good person, it only makes sense that decreasing those theoretical odds even more would make an even better person.

[jaybird]

II know this may come off more smug than I want it to, but I think it would help you (Sam) to focus less on what others are doing, moral superiority or inferiority, etc. (all subjective, etc. and besides, there are more gray areas there than you can shake a stick at and you can get bogged down so easily in those childish battles) and just think about what's best for yourself and those around you. Not just you, but in general.

I knew it would be taken that way. But that’s not the point I’m making. The moral calculations being made are inherently part of all of these arguments. Just as with, say, abortion. You can’t get anywhere with a catholic that believes life starts at conception because that’s when the soul enters the being. That is the end of that discussion, and you are a morally bereft heretic for having a differing opinion.

CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky had said that "vaccinated people do not carry the virus," but experts are saying to still use caution.

So you are basing your moral condemnation on others (conveniently propping up yourself in the process) based on an unproven, theoretical risk. Good for you, I guess. But any insistence on ‘just wear the damn mask’ because it’s the ‘right thing to do’ from someone making such a rash calculation on morality should be tossed in the shitter. And so it goes on any number of issues. You might *feel* as you’re a better person for making hollow gestures based on your own world view. But you’re not. By your own logic, I could be sitting here wearing three masks while I type this. Which would ultimately mean I’m literally a better person than you (unless you’re wearing four).

[lewdd]

NYC had nothing on this punk show in LA

https://loudwire.com/police-fire-rubber ... punk-show/

[SamDBL]

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/cdc-plans-drop-mask-requirements-fully-vaccinated-people-n1267249

Lol. The cdc doesn’t care about people.

[lewdd]

I rarely wore a mask while in MS and TN for 3 weeks in April and attended an outdoor music festival with probably a few thousand folks walking around a few small block radius, walked around Beale St in Memphis, and walked around downtown Nashville. They did require masks while I was in museums. Let's get back to normal lives!

[SamDBL]

I feel kinda bad for people that were so insistent that they were better than other people because they continued to wear a mask after vaccination for no real reason at all. However will they claim their moral superiority, now?