Let's talk about THE DOUGHBOYS

[jaybird]

Been revisiting their catalog lately... first two records are straight-up godly. They started getting a little too shoe-gaze-y for me as they went on, but they were always good for a handful of great songs on each subsequent record. And they were always just a flat out incredible live band. The first time I saw them was when they opened for the Descendents on the FinALL tour in '87 and they were amazing... I was 17 years old... Looking back, it fucking blows my mind to realize now that Kastner is only like 2 weeks older than I am (d.o.b. 8/12/69)... to be that confident and charismatic of a frontman that young is just astonishing. He was all of 22 years old here (52 min in):



The other thing that strikes me about this clip is the date, March 2nd, 1991... so like 6 months before Nevermind blew everything wide open.... as much as i like Nirvana, I will never, ever understand how they were the band to go supernova at that time, whereas other bands that seemed much more radio-friendly like the Doughboys and Big Drill Car are still an obscure footnote for most people.

Anyway, discuss.

[FormerLurker]

One of the few white guys with dreads that makes it work.

[the mean]

One of the few white guys with dreads that makes it work.

Every late 80s poppunk band had to have a white guy with dreads.

[the mean]

I love the first two records a lot, especially Home Again. But I really feel like they fell off after that when Pytel left the band and Kastner stopped doing that voice-cracking thing. Only an occasionally good song after that. I probably like Pytel's solo album better than any Doughboys album after he left.

[lewdd]

I saw Big Drill Car open for ALL at the El n Gee Club in New London, CT on Oct 21, 1989 a few days after I turned 20. I remember nothing about the show other than asking Bug to try to get me in because I was underage.

[jaybird]

One of the few white guys with dreads that makes it work.

Dude can reel in the top shelf babes for sure:

[scannest]

A very important band for me. Saw them multiple times opening on that very first ALL tour. They spent a lot of time on Staten Island whenever they came through NYC for the next couple years. I remember being so disappointed with HOME AGAIN after hearing those songs live some many times, but I've come to love it. I think HAPPY ACCIDENTS might be their best.

Somewhere buried in the deepest recesses of YouTube is a S.I. Public Access sketch show featuring myself and Pilster and Midge and Aquaman where the Doughboys graciously agreed to let us film them live in our local rehearsal room. They do Alice Cooper's "Long Way to Go". If I find the clip, I'll share it.

[xxxMidgexxx]

i discovered them. no, really.

[xxxMidgexxx]

Somewhere buried in the deepest recesses of YouTube is a S.I. Public Access sketch show featuring myself and Pilster and Midge and Aquaman where the Doughboys graciously agreed to let us film them live in our local rehearsal room. They do Alice Cooper's "Long Way to Go". If I find the clip, I'll share it.

They also played "No Way", but I don't know if that got salvaged in the film.

[scannest]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5093&p=72379&hilit=Kastner#p72379

[jaybird]

. I remember being so disappointed with HOME AGAIN after hearing those songs live some many times, but I've come to love it. I think HAPPY ACCIDENTS might be their best.

Funny, I actually have Happy Accident on the turntable as I type... I have my issues with the quality of the recording/mix on Home Again, but overall, I probably prefer it to the heavy, reverb-drenched sound of the subsequent records... that's mostly what i'm referring to with my original comment about them drifting too far into "shoe-gaze-y" territory on the later albums.

I've mentioned it before, but I do think the best song they ever wrote was on their last album, and the one that Grohl shamelessly ripped off for "Monkey Wrench"... probably their best-sounding album too, getting back to straight rock and roll guitar sound.

[gregpolard]

Rad band. I know it's from a later record but right before Easy Creatures split we had talked about covering "Shine". Would've been fun!

[lewdd]

Wow! Grohl almost ripped that off note for note.

[gregpolard]

I'm guessing he felt guilty enough and that's why the Foo's took them on tour a while back.

[pedro]

There was a recent thread where Social Distortion was discussed. I pointed out that there are two shows that really stand out in my mind where one of the openers absolutely crushed the headliners. One was when the Freeze blew Social Distortion off the stage when I saw them at The Channel in the 80s. I mean, Social Distortion should have been embarrassed.

The other was the first time I saw the Doughboys. They completely blew ALL of the stage at Green Street Station in Jamaica Plain. My goodness did the Doughboys kill ALL that night. I had been a fan of the Asexuals before (a friend had moved from Montreal a couple of years before) that show but I had never heard the Doughboys before. They were the best band I had seen in a long time. I bought the first album at that show and I loved it. I can still pretty much sing the entire thing. A little while later I saw them open for ALL again at The Channel and they weren’t quite as good. Still good but not like before. Bigger place and a half full room probably had something to do with it. The most memorable part of that show was Dave Smalley joining Mike Gitter’s band (I don’t remember if it was Grin or Apology) for a rendition of DYS’s “Late Night”. If I recall correctly ALL covered “Media Blitz”.

I heard the second Doughboys album a couple of times and it didn’t grab me like the first. I didn’t really care about them ever again.

In related news, that rare “Dough Boys” seven inch I have has sold for $130 on Discogs.

[xxxMidgexxx]

I love the first two records a lot, especially Home Again. But I really feel like they fell off after that when Pytel left the band and Kastner stopped doing that voice-cracking thing. Only an occasionally good song after that. I probably like Pytel's solo album better than any Doughboys album after he left.

He is a terrific dude as well. I still keep in contact with him. Loving his new band SLIP ONS. Like Pytel Doughboys meets mid period Replacements.

[xxxMidgexxx]

They completely blew ALL of the stage at Green Street Station in Jamaica Plain. My goodness did the Doughboys kill ALL that night.

It happened in NY a few times as well. ALL will always be faves, but they were playing a lot of the music on that tour that was 'difficult' (almost jazzy) while Scott was most likely trying to figure out how the hell to put a cohesive melody on top of the new songs. Doughboys came out, perfect mix, sing along songs, jumping around, hair flying all over the stage....they couldn't lose.

[SamDBL]

They were one of my big bands, back then. I only got to see them once (opening for 7 Seconds). Happy Accidents tour. And unfortunately the mix was horrible and the sound guy apparently didn’t get the memo that the whole band sang lead vocals. So he opted to just mute them all (or so it sounded).

[JGJR]

One of the few white guys with dreads that makes it work.

Dude can reel in the top shelf babes for sure:

Is the first pic with the lady who played Don's wife Megan on Mad Men (Jessica Pare?).

I saw them open for Buzzcocks at the Stone Pony in 1993. That was my first time at the Pony and quite a show/experience. By that point, they were combining the earlier sound with some of the more reverb-y stuff. I'm glad I saw them, but wish I'd gotten to see them earlier like many of you.

[scannest]

Do yourselves a favor (god, please do it) and skip ahead to the 1:25 mark.

[jaybird]

One of the few white guys with dreads that makes it work.

Dude can reel in the top shelf babes for sure:

Is the first pic with the lady who played Don's wife Megan on Mad Men (Jessica Pare?).

I saw them open for Buzzcocks at the Stone Pony in 1993. That was my first time at the Pony and quite a show/experience. By that point, they were combining the earlier sound with some of the more reverb-y stuff. I'm glad I saw them, but wish I'd gotten to see them earlier like many of you.

That's her... they've been married for awhile. The other chick was his first wife, and she was on Deep Space Nine

[jaybird]

Do yourselves a favor (god, please do it) and skip ahead to the 1:25 mark.

LOL.... did you guys have any other cool bands on your show? I love old weird public access punk band clips.

[xxxMidgexxx]

My favorite Doughboys line up.

[scannest]

LOL.... did you guys have any other cool bands on your show? I love old weird public access punk band clips.

I don't think so. This just kinda fell in our lap. They were probably staying at Pilser's house.

[jaybird]

Just listened to Home Again... still holds up.

HOWEVER...

I forgot Brock uses the N-word on "White Sister"...

[the mean]

Just listened to Home Again... still holds up.

HOWEVER...

I forgot Brock uses the N-word on "White Sister"...

One of a number of anti-racist punk songs from the 80s that use it.

[jaybird]

Just listened to Home Again... still holds up.

HOWEVER...

I forgot Brock uses the N-word on "White Sister"...

One of a number of anti-racist punk songs from the 80s that use it.

True, it was a different time... The rationale "but we're saying 'ironically' in an anti-racist song" just would never, ever fly these days.

[SamDBL]

Just listened to Home Again... still holds up.

HOWEVER...

I forgot Brock uses the N-word on "White Sister"...

One of a number of anti-racist punk songs from the 80s that use it.

True, it was a different time... The rationale "but we're saying 'ironically' in an anti-racist song" just would never, ever fly these days.

Absolutely. I think this every time I hear “Oliver’s Army” by Elvis Costello. That little four-eyed bastard better keep his head down and hope to god that one doesn’t run across some woke music editor’s desk.

[xxxMidgexxx]

Just listened to Home Again... still holds up.

Terrific songs maybe my fave of their full lengths, but there is some kind of phaser or flanger that runs through the entire album. If I remember correctly, they told Stephen to use it as they wanted to sound like Husker Du.

[FormerLurker]

WTF? Kastner and Away (Voivod) were in Men Without Hats for three years??

[xxxMidgexxx]

Just listened to Home Again... still holds up.

HOWEVER...

I forgot Brock uses the N-word on "White Sister"...

One of a number of anti-racist punk songs from the 80s that use it.

True, it was a different time... The rationale "but we're saying 'ironically' in an anti-racist song" just would never, ever fly these days.

Does Patti Smith get a pass?

[Marc M]

I saw ALL and Big Drill Car a ton in the 90's but somehow regrettably never caught The Doughboys. I did get to see and hang out with All Systems Go! a couple time in Brazil with Karl Alvarez on bass though. Kastner is a fun dude.

[jaybird]

Just listened to Home Again... still holds up.

HOWEVER...

I forgot Brock uses the N-word on "White Sister"...

One of a number of anti-racist punk songs from the 80s that use it.

True, it was a different time... The rationale "but we're saying 'ironically' in an anti-racist song" just would never, ever fly these days.

Does Patti Smith get a pass?

With the new Woke SJW generation?

[xxxHunterxxx]

Elvis has a lot more baggage than “Oliver’s Army”:

https://ultimateclassicrock.com/elvis-costello-racist-remarks/

[xxxHunterxxx]

They completely blew ALL of the stage at Green Street Station in Jamaica Plain. My goodness did the Doughboys kill ALL that night.

It happened in NY a few times as well. ALL will always be faves, but they were playing a lot of the music on that tour that was 'difficult' (almost jazzy) while Scott was most likely trying to figure out how the hell to put a cohesive melody on top of the new songs. Doughboys came out, perfect mix, sing along songs, jumping around, hair flying all over the stage....they couldn't lose.

Pedro’s talking about Smalley-era All. The Doughboys were the opener on that first All tour in ‘88. You shoulda seen it, Mudge — it was right up there with the My War Tour.

[xxxMidgexxx]

They completely blew ALL of the stage at Green Street Station in Jamaica Plain. My goodness did the Doughboys kill ALL that night.

It happened in NY a few times as well. ALL will always be faves, but they were playing a lot of the music on that tour that was 'difficult' (almost jazzy) while Scott was most likely trying to figure out how the hell to put a cohesive melody on top of the new songs. Doughboys came out, perfect mix, sing along songs, jumping around, hair flying all over the stage....they couldn't lose.

Pedro’s talking about Smalley-era All. The Doughboys were the opener on that first All tour in ‘88. You shoulda seen it, Mudge — it was right up there with the My War Tour.

Er...um...you may wish to take a moment to review the video Sal posted and scroll to the actual Doughboys performance. I do believe that is me wearing the Prong shirt sitting against the wall. But I'm sure someone gave you a mixtape with a Doughboys song on it at some point in your 30's.

[version sound]

Mitch and Nick are great. One of my favorite podcasts.

[xxxHunterxxx]

They completely blew ALL of the stage at Green Street Station in Jamaica Plain. My goodness did the Doughboys kill ALL that night.

It happened in NY a few times as well. ALL will always be faves, but they were playing a lot of the music on that tour that was 'difficult' (almost jazzy) while Scott was most likely trying to figure out how the hell to put a cohesive melody on top of the new songs. Doughboys came out, perfect mix, sing along songs, jumping around, hair flying all over the stage....they couldn't lose.

Pedro’s talking about Smalley-era All. The Doughboys were the opener on that first All tour in ‘88. You shoulda seen it, Mudge — it was right up there with the My War Tour.

Er...um...you may wish to take a moment to review the video Sal posted and scroll to the actual Doughboys performance. I do believe that is me wearing the Prong shirt sitting against the wall. But I'm sure someone gave you a mixtape with a Doughboys song on it at some point in your 30's.

I see Sal, Pilster, TJ, and some dude with a mullet and mustache. No sign of you, bro.

[xxxMidgexxx]

I see Sal, Pilster, TJ, and some dude with a mullet and mustache. No sign of you, bro.

[pedro]

True confessions time. I saw ALL a total of four times. Twice with Smalley. I'm not sure who I saw sing the other two times. I don;t remember the year for either show, but once was during the original run at the Cat's Cradle in NC. The other was the reunion show in San Diego where I met WrEtCH, sean and some other ALL/Dork board folks.

In short, I don't know the difference between Scott-ALL and Chad-ALL.

[JGJR]

Just listened to Home Again... still holds up.

HOWEVER...

I forgot Brock uses the N-word on "White Sister"...

One of a number of anti-racist punk songs from the 80s that use it.

True, it was a different time... The rationale "but we're saying 'ironically' in an anti-racist song" just would never, ever fly these days.

Absolutely. I think this every time I hear “Oliver’s Army” by Elvis Costello. That little four-eyed bastard better keep his head down and hope to god that one doesn’t run across some woke music editor’s desk.

Context is everything. That is an anti-war, anti-imperialist anthem. And yep, The Avengers, Big Boys, Joe Jackson, and probably others I'm not thinking about used that awful word in that context back then. Oh and Really Red. Probably others, etc.

[JGJR]

Just listened to Home Again... still holds up.

HOWEVER...

I forgot Brock uses the N-word on "White Sister"...

One of a number of anti-racist punk songs from the 80s that use it.

True, it was a different time... The rationale "but we're saying 'ironically' in an anti-racist song" just would never, ever fly these days.

Does Patti Smith get a pass?

With the new Woke SJW generation?

I saw her get presented with an honorary award at the very progressive all-womens' college that I worked at back in 2013, so I'd say yes.

[xxxMidgexxx]

True confessions time. I saw ALL a total of four times. Twice with Smalley. I'm not sure who I saw sing the other two times. I don;t remember the year for either show, but once was during the original run at the Cat's Cradle in NC. The other was the reunion show in San Diego where I met WrEtCH, sean and some other ALL/Dork board folks.

In short, I don't know the difference between Scott-ALL and Chad-ALL.

The ALL show you're talking about where Doughboys blew them away was most likely with Dave. It's been over 35 years ago and I couldn't remember who the singer was. I do also remember, perhaps it was Big Drill Car or Chemical People opening in NY where Scott was singing over very "damaged" music and it not coming across to me very well until the album was released and repeated listenings were available. We questioned Bill at least once about how he expects his singers to find a melody over these musically difficult tunes. Even 'Maddie' from Descendents is a tough one. His response was "you gotta WANT the melody" to get those songs.

[pedro]

The ALL show you're talking about where Doughboys blew them away was most likely with Dave.

No, it was definitely Dave singing. The second time I saw them it was definitely Dave singing. The other two times I saw ALL I am not sure if it was Chad or Scott.

[Neal]

my fave doughboys albums are the first and crush. scrappy and slick. wish the between albums had a little more bite, but home again was the first one i heard, so still like that one a lot. kind of miss that late 80s/early 90s style of punk bands with long hair and long shorts.

i like the first all systems go album and got to see them in sf once, without frank daly. always mean to check out the 2nd album. just remembered there was a john kastner album released a while ago too that i should check out too.

[scannest]

i like the first all systems go album and got to see them in sf once, without frank daly. always mean to check out the 2nd album. just remembered there was a john kastner album released a while ago too that i should check out too.

I love the second ASG record, MON CHI CHI. My fave songs were actually by the new bass player, Thomas D'Arcy. Saw them play in front of virtually no one at a SXSW showcase.

[patient_ot]

I tried several times over the years to get into this band and never could. Their albums frequently used to show up in the used bins. Weird vocals and horrible production were my conclusion.

Then one day I came across a copy of the first one and bought that. I really like that one, but never tried any of the later stuff again. Maybe I will at some point.

[jaybird]

Just listened to Home Again... still holds up.

HOWEVER...

I forgot Brock uses the N-word on "White Sister"...

One of a number of anti-racist punk songs from the 80s that use it.

True, it was a different time... The rationale "but we're saying 'ironically' in an anti-racist song" just would never, ever fly these days.

Does Patti Smith get a pass?

With the new Woke SJW generation?

I saw her get presented with an honorary award at the very progressive all-womens' college that I worked at back in 2013, so I'd say yes.

2013 was 8 years ago... that's like a century ago in woke-years. If she was up for a similar award today, I think it's very likely that she would find current progressive audiences not nearly as forgiving or capable of interpreting context or nuance.

[jaybird]

i like the first all systems go album and got to see them in sf once, without frank daly. always mean to check out the 2nd album. just remembered there was a john kastner album released a while ago too that i should check out too.

I love the second ASG record, MON CHI CHI. My fave songs were actually by the new bass player, Thomas D'Arcy. Saw them play in front of virtually no one at a SXSW showcase.

Supposedly they recorded a bunch of stuff with Karl on bass for a rumored 3rd album... there's one tune on the 'tubes that's pretty killer:




reminds me a lot of Dave-era-ALL

[xxxMidgexxx]

2013 was 8 years ago... that's like a century ago in woke-years. If she (Patti) was up for a similar award today, I think it's very likely that she would find current progressive audiences not nearly as forgiving or capable of interpreting context or nuance.

That's debatable. She's Patti freakin' Smith. Perhaps a small, fanatic faction of woke America would object, but I'd wager that most would find a way to sweep this lyric under the rug. After all, she argued the meaning of the song back then as well. Since then, I don't think she's done anything else worth controversy.