Now we’ll finally get to the bottom of things.

[Welly]

Now we’ll finally get to the bottom of things.

[lewdd]

is it over yet

[xxxMidgexxx]

o·ver
/ˈōvər/
preposition

Election is done. Joe Biden won, Donald Trump lost. Supreme Court declined to hear Trump’s lawsuit.

[scannest]

Supreme Court declined to hear Trump’s lawsuit.

The Wisconsin Supreme Court declined to hear the lawsuit. SCOTUS has yet to be asked in weigh in (formally).

This is one (perhaps the last) in a long line of scams to separate gullible, vulnerable people from their money. The longer he keeps this going, the more cash will be donated to one of his many funds. Read the small print and he's essentially free to spend that money however he sees fit. The second he concedes that tap gets turned off. I don't know which is the more awful likelihood - that he believes his rants about a fixed election, or that he knows he is full of shit and is simply undermining democracy to line his pockets a little longer.

[pedro]

He's going to announce his candidacy for 2024 on January 20, 2021.

The money will keep coming. Grifters gonna grift.

[scannest]

If he's still alive in 2024...I dunno, I got nuthin'.

[version sound]

...he knows he is full of shit and is simply undermining democracy to line his pockets a little longer.

BINGO!

He does not believe in democracy. Never has. And he does not give a shit about anyone but himself, including his family. If there was a fire in the White House, he would push them into the flames to get himself out faster.

[SamDBL]

I firmly believe he lost fair and square. I am curious, though, about this line that he is undermining democracy by claiming fraud. Was Hillary Clinton and the opposition undermining democracy the past 4 years by clamoring on about how she actually won except for suppression/Russian interference/possible hacking and that Trump was an illegitimate president and all the pundits that went along with this line of thinking? I’m dismayed that the party that has relentlessly been telling us that the last election was stolen by Russia is now telling us that this election in no way compromised and to claim otherwise is going to destroy the country, or some such.

He lost. Whichever side loses throws a tantrum and whines about a stolen election. The other side gloats. At least that’s where we have been for the last couple of decades. Big deal. He’ll be out in a few weeks. Everyone calm down.

[version sound]

I think it’s actually been conclusively proven that there wasn’t any significant voter fraud in 2016. It was actually Trump pushing the idea that there was voter fraud because his ego couldn’t take the fact that he lost the popular vote. I don’t recall any Dems making that claim. Hillary conceded and Obama worked with the Republicans to effect a peaceful, orderly transfer of power.

[scannest]

I always believed the claims of Russian interference in the 2016 election had more to do with spamming Social Media with false information and hacking email servers. I don't think anyone worth listening to said they did anything as direct as manipulating votes.

[lewdd]

at the end of the day, the voting process is outdated and could use new methods. the govt is probably still working with software fixed with y2k patches

[SamDBL]

Oh man, when I have more time I’ll post multiple clips of her and prominent dems denying the legitimacy of trumps 2016 victory as recent as a month ago.
She officially conceded and subsequently went on a years long crusade of all the reasons why the election was ‘stolen’ from her. I mean, it was a humiliating defeat to have been taken out by the worst candidate in history.
Trump will also concede with about as much class. And there will be a peaceful transfer of power. Etc. Business as usual.

[SamDBL]

I always believed the claims of Russian interference in the 2016 election had more to do with spamming Social Media with false information and hacking email servers. I don't think anyone worth listening to said they did anything as direct as manipulating votes.

Yeah, instead of voter fraud they claimed it was ‘stolen’ by Russian interference (ie Facebook ads). Same difference. Whining that they didn’t actually lose when they did. Just as Trump is expectedly doing now. And yes, there were claims taken seriously by mainstream dems of machines being hacked, etc. just as ridiculous then as they are now by trump.

[SamDBL]

[Welly]

Now we’ll finally get to the bottom of things.

[lewdd]

Looks like this should all be behind us next week.

[Welly]

Now we’ll finally get to the bottom of things.

[xxxMidgexxx]

Game
Set
Match.

Done. (Again)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/supreme-court-trump-pennsylvania-election-results/2020/12/08/4d39e16c-397d-11eb-98c4-25dc9f4987e8_story.html?fbclid=IwAR0SAZhJaGUSDlhCZ9sncIyAzotHEo6yqQu9HY4O08n6Mf9fABH9dwLU1H4

[lewdd]

Game
Set
Match.

Done. (Again)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/supreme-court-trump-pennsylvania-election-results/2020/12/08/4d39e16c-397d-11eb-98c4-25dc9f4987e8_story.html?fbclid=IwAR0SAZhJaGUSDlhCZ9sncIyAzotHEo6yqQu9HY4O08n6Mf9fABH9dwLU1H4

I read the intro to that earlier today. The electoral college vote is next week too. Rudy is in the hospital. Probably a flury of lawsuits end of this week or over the weekend to attempt to stop the vote next week, but I don't see the vote not happening.

[SamDBL]

I think it’s actually been conclusively proven that there wasn’t any significant voter fraud in 2016. It was actually Trump pushing the idea that there was voter fraud because his ego couldn’t take the fact that he lost the popular vote. I don’t recall any Dems making that claim. Hillary conceded and Obama worked with the Republicans to effect a peaceful, orderly transfer of power.

It's a false equivalence anyway that talk four years ago was anything like what's going on now. Just look at all the lawsuits and other bullshit that they've been trying to pull for the last month. I don't remember any of that happening four years ago.

Bush vs. Gore went to the Supreme Court to force a decision. For the last several election cycles off and on throughout the last couple of centuries, the losing side claims foul and pitches a fit. Whether Trump is simply repeating the established pattern, or whether he taking it a step further is splitting hairs. The constant hyperbole for Trump is silly, though. "Ruining democracy". Give me a break. If anything, the fact that 'the worst dictator since Hitler (actually worse than Hitler, by some accounts)' will be out on his ass come January despite his best legal efforts should solidify everyone's faith in the US election system. It almost seems like people are kind of disappointed that the whole 'Scarface locked in the Whitehouse while the military has been turned against the citizens' scenario didn't happen. Yes, that was actually being discussed as a possibility by serious political analysts on mainstream outlets.

[lewdd]

and to think that the UK is distributing vaccines before the USA...

[xxxMidgexxx]

It almost seems like people are kind of disappointed that the whole 'Scarface locked in the Whitehouse while the military has been turned against the citizens' scenario didn't happen. Yes, that was actually being discussed as a possibility by serious political analysts on mainstream outlets.

I would however have loved to see a sort of David Koresh scenario where he burns down in his bunker like a scared little bitch with some of his enablers and supporters. I'm a real prick like that. For what he'd inflicted on this nation, it would have been poetic justice.

[captain2man]

and to think that the UK is distributing vaccines before the USA...

The approval process in the U.S. is far more rigorous than in the UK.

[version sound]

I always believed the claims of Russian interference in the 2016 election had more to do with spamming Social Media with false information and hacking email servers. I don't think anyone worth listening to said they did anything as direct as manipulating votes.

Exactly. What he and his team did that was illegal and impeachable was to work with foreign operatives to influence the election. That did not extend to manipulating the actual voting process as far as I’ve heard. What he’s currently doing is more grandstanding to soothe his ego and to get LOTS of money from gullible idiots. He doesn’t particularly care what the overall effects of that are on the legitimate political process.

[SamDBL]

It was informally alleged by Hillary, people working for her, and fairly mainstream pundits at places like Vox and NYT that the voting software was very probably hacked in 2016. I can post links if you are too lazy to look for them.
This is not a defense of Trump. It’s a criticism of anyone that says a losing presidential candidate saying that the election was tampered and the election was ‘stolen’ is some crazy new low that we’ve never witnessed before. That is pure partisan bullshit. Trump’s lawsuits are completely within his legal right. He is also getting shot down left and right because he has no real case. So get over it already. Incidentally, it’s amazing how many times he’s been slapped down by the Supreme Court, when I was clearly told he personally staffed it by rapists and hand maids so that he could take over the world. When is that happening, again?

As a guy that was solidly in the Dem camp less than five years ago, I am now at a point where I absolutely loathe that party. Equally as much as I hated Trump, if you can believe it. It’s become a pandering, nonsensical-spewing, flaming bag of dog shit organization. In fact, the only election that I think was really officially stolen in recent memory was the nomination of Bernie Sanders (whom I also hate). So anyway, we’ve had 4 years of over stated hyperbole about an extremely divisive president. It’s over. He’s out.

[xxxMidgexxx]

I never found myself comfortable in ANY camp. I can't vote in primaries because I'm an independent and not registered with any party. But being FORCED to pick a lane, for the past 15+ years, I didn't have to think twice about who I was voting against.

[version sound]

I used to vote Green Party, since my vote doesn’t really mean anything in DC, I mean the Dems are going to win, no matter who I vote for, but that 2016 Green Party ticket was a fucking train wreck. I am by no means a diehard Dem, if someone better was on the ballot, regardless of party affiliation, I would vote for them. Unfortunately, the political machine in this country doesn’t spit out a lot of inspiring candidates.

[lewdd]

Unfortunately, the political machine in this country doesn’t spit out a lot of inspiring candidates.

100% agree on this statement

[xxxMidgexxx]

UPDATE: 12/11/2020 @ 7:45P

I just saw a toy sailboat float down my street on a river of Trump's tears.

[lewdd]

UPDATE: 12/11/2020 @ 7:45P

I just saw a toy sailboat float down my street on a river of Trump's tears.

I doubt it. The only time that guy will cry is when he dies.

[xxxMidgexxx]

UPDATE: 12/11/2020 @ 7:45P

I just saw a toy sailboat float down my street on a river of Trump's tears.

I doubt it. The only time that guy will cry is when he dies.

Hmmm..maybe. But 2021 POTUS has sworn off of any 'healing' pardons ala Ford/Nixon.

So, should Trump get nailed for Federal crimes, he's in deep shit. And there's no pardoning States crimes, so yeah. That too.

Time is ticking karmic bitch on wheels.

[lewdd]

If he committed crimes, he should be tried and prosecuted if found guilty. And his extended family too.

I would not be surprised if they made millions every day he said something stupid to drive the stock market down and then a few days later lie about something that drove the stock market up.

First president to use twitter to drive changes in the stock market with tweets. Hopefully, the last one.

[xxxMidgexxx]

If he committed crimes, he should be tried and prosecuted if found guilty. And his extended family too.

I would not be surprised if they made millions every day he said something stupid to drive the stock market down and then a few days later lie about something that drove the stock market up.

First president to use twitter to drive changes in the stock market with tweets. Hopefully, the last one.

Correct on all 3 accounts.

[lewdd]

I almost like the red haired female you

[xxxMidgexxx]

I almost like the red haired female you

Its the REAL Midge f Lightweight

[lewdd]

[JGJR]

I always believed the claims of Russian interference in the 2016 election had more to do with spamming Social Media with false information and hacking email servers. I don't think anyone worth listening to said they did anything as direct as manipulating votes.

Thank you for not affirming that liberal dogma. It goes unchallenged (the notion that they interfered and so that is really bad and it's always without clarification unlike what you did above) in many so-called liberal or progressive circles because Rachel Maddow and others on MSNBC and CNN have hammered it (Russiagate)for years (and then oddly didn't mention it at all during the DNC), but I think the whole thing is BS honestly besides what you said. As if there weren't 100 other more important things to be upset about, just the 2017 tax cuts and what they did to the EPA alone would suffice, but let's not rehash all of that here. We "influence" more countries' elections than anyone else anyway. Venezuela and Bolivia (and their corrections of attempted American interference) are good recent examples, but anyway, all the "Russia is scary" stuff is just to stir up Cold War propaganda. I think the ultimate target of all of that stuff is China anyway. Wag the dog, etc.

[JGJR]

I firmly believe he lost fair and square. I am curious, though, about this line that he is undermining democracy by claiming fraud. Was Hillary Clinton and the opposition undermining democracy the past 4 years by clamoring on about how she actually won except for suppression/Russian interference/possible hacking and that Trump was an illegitimate president and all the pundits that went along with this line of thinking? I’m dismayed that the party that has relentlessly been telling us that the last election was stolen by Russia is now telling us that this election in no way compromised and to claim otherwise is going to destroy the country, or some such.

He lost. Whichever side loses throws a tantrum and whines about a stolen election. The other side gloats. At least that’s where we have been for the last couple of decades. Big deal. He’ll be out in a few weeks. Everyone calm down.

To say that I've often disagreed with you politically over the years would be an understatement, but on this one, I'm with you 100%.

There is one major caveat, though. In any other nation with a semblance of a democratic voting process, Hillary would've been President in 2016 because no one except Trump himself and his idiot followers disputed the popular vote count (so I am deifnitely not letting them off the hook here) Not only that, but obviously we got a different result in 2000 as well. The Electoral College is a stupid, crazy, holdover to appease slave states and should've been abolished a long time ago.

[JGJR]

As a guy that was solidly in the Dem camp less than five years ago, I am now at a point where I absolutely loathe that party. Equally as much as I hated Trump, if you can believe it. It’s become a pandering, nonsensical-spewing, flaming bag of dog shit organization. In fact, the only election that I think was really officially stolen in recent memory was the nomination of Bernie Sanders (whom I also hate). So anyway, we’ve had 4 years of over stated hyperbole about an extremely divisive president. It’s over. He’s out.

You had me almost completely until you said that you hate Bernie. He's one of the few politicians I actually really like (strong supporter this year and in 2016 and yes fuck the DNC, etc.). No surprise given your views, but yes to almost everything else you wrote. Seriously.

I'm a registered Dem, but mainly so that I can vote in primaries. I wrote in the candidate for House rep that I volunteered for, voted on the Working Families line, etc.

[JGJR]

I used to vote Green Party, since my vote doesn’t really mean anything in DC, I mean the Dems are going to win, no matter who I vote for, but that 2016 Green Party ticket was a fucking train wreck. I am by no means a diehard Dem, if someone better was on the ballot, regardless of party affiliation, I would vote for them. Unfortunately, the political machine in this country doesn’t spit out a lot of inspiring candidates.

The problem is that there's no real left-wing party in this country. The Dems are just a right-wing party at this point except for the progressive wing. But yes to everything you wrote above.

[lewdd]

I think the post office doesn't think the elections are over yet. I have about a dozen packages that will not arrive in time for christmas for me to open. I've had one that shipped from CA on 12/1 and tracking shows it still hasn't left the state. What a fucking joke and embarrassment for this country!

[SamDBL]

I think people on this board, due to the demographics of it being a message board for a punk band, are unhappy with the dems because they (people on this boar) are further left on issues than some of the party has gone, and with the stealing of bernies nomination. However, I have always been a more slightly left of center, mainstream type of person. I am just not down with a party that would spend $10 million of a COVID stimulus bill on gender programs in Pakistan. I’m not up for diversity over merit in every single case of every single sector. I’m not not down for a party that has incredibly wealthy people like DeBlasio openly demanding wealth redistribution from the middle and upper middle class (I will never understand how astronomically rich politicians giving lip service to socialism passes muster with the base. Are you that stupid?). I’m not down with a party that makes part of its platform trying to shove the illogical premise that trans women and biological women are 100% the same thing, and should therefore be treated the exact same by force of law and extreme social punishment. Or that is ok with racist policies against white people in th name of racial equity (the recent push to prioritize young minorities over the elderly for vaccinations because old people tend to be white). Anyone who speaks against this stuff runs the risk of being accused of being right wing. But about 15 years ago, it was all crazy talk from far left wing fringe people. I truly do not understand how people can say the party hasn’t lurched incredibly to the left when every nominee claimed that reparations was a serious consideration. Or when an official climate appointee gives a speech about how she is going to address racial inequity with climate policies. The only time I feel sane is when I hear tidbits about someone like Tulsi Gabbard. That is the type of candidate I would happily vote for. Alas, she is in the great minority of her party, and generated zero enthusiasm from the idiotic dem base during nomination. Anyway, I know there are many, many, many like me out there. My prediction is if the opposing party puts none up that is even remotely more tolerable than trump, the dems will be crushed. Because they have totally forsaken a large portion of their base in favor of turning everything into intersectional garbage. Hell, it took all they had to get trump out (while losing their asses in the other branches). But their Olympic level lack of self awareness will just tell them that that’s because everyone in the US is dumb and racist. Not because their party is now a steaming pile that has completely lost sight of what it used to be about (the working middle class).

[JGJR]

I think people on this board, due to the demographics of it being a message board for a punk band, are unhappy with the dems because they (people on this boar) are further left on issues than some of the party has gone, and with the stealing of bernies nomination. However, I have always been a more slightly left of center, mainstream type of person. I am just not down with a party that would spend $10 million of a COVID stimulus bill on gender programs in Pakistan. I’m not up for diversity over merit in every single case of every single sector. I’m not not down for a party that has incredibly wealthy people like DeBlasio openly demanding wealth redistribution from the middle and upper middle class (I will never understand how astronomically rich politicians giving lip service to socialism passes muster with the base. Are you that stupid?). I’m not down with a party that makes part of its platform trying to shove the illogical premise that trans women and biological women are 100% the same thing, and should therefore be treated the exact same by force of law and extreme social punishment. Or that is ok with racist policies against white people in th name of racial equity (the recent push to prioritize young minorities over the elderly for vaccinations because old people tend to be white). Anyone who speaks against this stuff runs the risk of being accused of being right wing. But about 15 years ago, it was all crazy talk from far left wing fringe people. I truly do not understand how people can say the party hasn’t lurched incredibly to the left when every nominee claimed that reparations was a serious consideration. Or when an official climate appointee gives a speech about how she is going to address racial inequity with climate policies. The only time I feel sane is when I hear tidbits about someone like Tulsi Gabbard. That is the type of candidate I would happily vote for. Alas, she is in the great minority of her party, and generated zero enthusiasm from the idiotic dem base during nomination. Anyway, I know there are many, many, many like me out there. My prediction is if the opposing party puts none up that is even remotely more tolerable than trump, the dems will be crushed. Because they have totally forsaken a large portion of their base in favor of turning everything into intersectional garbage. Hell, it took all they had to get trump out (while losing their asses in the other branches). But their Olympic level lack of self awareness will just tell them that that’s because everyone in the US is dumb and racist. Not because their party is now a steaming pile that has completely lost sight of what it used to be about (the working middle class).

I don't have the time, energy, or desire to argue with you on any of the above except to say that I strongly disagree with most, but not all of it. And yes, that is the exact reason I'm disillusioned with the Dems. I think they suck, too, but it sounds like it's for totally different reasons (except that lack of self-awareness) I like Tulsi a lot btw(though I don't always agree with her), but I'm guessing it's at least partly for different reasons than you.

BTW them paying lip service to intersectional stuff is just their co-opting something real and important (the very term "identity politics" originated with black feminism in the late '70s) and using it to get the base to support their plutocrat-friendly candidates that are not friendly at all to our ideas as long as they're women, minorities, et al. It's really disingenuous and actually racist/sexist if you think about it.

And why are people who just want other people fed, housed, taken care of, etc. radical and the idea of not giving someone full human rights (like trans people) centrist/mainstream/whatever? Or endless war? Is that not radically awful?

[JGJR]

I think the post office doesn't think the elections are over yet. I have about a dozen packages that will not arrive in time for christmas for me to open. I've had one that shipped from CA on 12/1 and tracking shows it still hasn't left the state. What a fucking joke and embarrassment for this country!

Funny, but it's a wonder that they're delivering anything at all right now given how backed up they are due to all of that nonsense from earlier in the year combined with normal holiday barrage, being understaffed due to COVID, their Republican-induced budgetary woes since the late '00s, et al.

All that said, I'm still waiting (waiting) on a bunch of stuff, including holiday presents, to be delivered, so I get it.

[SamDBL]

“ why are people who just want other people fed, housed, taken care of, etc. radical and the idea of not giving someone full human rights (like trans people) centrist/mainstream/whatever? Or endless war? Is that not radically awful?”

This is an over simplification of issues, causes and solutions that is often used as a defense for some crazy stuff. To put forth a proposition like “we should prioritize vaccinating young, healthy minorities over elderly people that have a significantly higher risk of dying from COVID in the name of racial equity”,and then come back with “why don’t you care about black people?” as a defense when someone criticizes that policy is ridiculous. And so it goes for trans rights, initiatives for the poor, etc. Almost *everyone* agrees with these broad stroke statements. It’s the policies used to address them that are the issue. There are a million ways you can come at them, and people should be allowed to agree or disagree without the nonsensical non-defense of ‘Well then I care and you don’t’ coming in to play. It impedes *actual* progress, imo. You don’t get to propose completely unrealistic, unworkable, divisive, and yes radical ideas such as the green new deal or encouraging hormonal treatments for pre pubescent children based on what toys they choose to play with and then say “anyone that has any reservations about these ideas are anti environment and anti-trans” as a preemptive shield. There are a million other reasons these types of ideas are open to criticism.
It’s not the impetus behind these ideas that make them radical. Ie, let’s make the environment cleaner and make sure everyone is treated respectfully. It’s that the proposed solutions are radical that make them radical. Ie. let’s make cows stop farting and enforce the use of arbitrary pronouns like zhe and zir by threat of social ruination and/or law.

[Welly]

Now we’ll finally get to the bottom of things.

[jaybird]

“ why are people who just want other people fed, housed, taken care of, etc. radical and the idea of not giving someone full human rights (like trans people) centrist/mainstream/whatever? Or endless war? Is that not radically awful?”

This is an over simplification of issues, causes and solutions that is often used as a defense for some crazy stuff. To put forth a proposition like “we should prioritize vaccinating young, healthy minorities over elderly people that have a significantly higher risk of dying from COVID in the name of racial equity”,and then come back with “why don’t you care about black people?” as a defense when someone criticizes that policy is ridiculous. And so it goes for trans rights, initiatives for the poor, etc. Almost *everyone* agrees with these broad stroke statements. It’s the policies used to address them that are the issue. There are a million ways you can come at them, and people should be allowed to agree or disagree without the nonsensical non-defense of ‘Well then I care and you don’t’ coming in to play. It impedes *actual* progress, imo. You don’t get to propose completely unrealistic, unworkable, divisive, and yes radical ideas such as the green new deal or encouraging hormonal treatments for pre pubescent children based on what toys they choose to play with and then say “anyone that has any reservations about these ideas are anti environment and anti-trans” as a preemptive shield. There are a million other reasons these types of ideas are open to criticism. It’s not the impetus behind these ideas that make them radical. Ie, let’s make the environment cleaner and make sure everyone is treated respectfully. It’s that the proposed solutions are radical that make them radical. Ie. let’s make cows stop farting and enforce the use of arbitrary pronouns like zhe and zir by threat of social ruination and/or law.

Huged 'n' bronzed for posterity.

[lewdd]

I think the post office doesn't think the elections are over yet. I have about a dozen packages that will not arrive in time for christmas for me to open. I've had one that shipped from CA on 12/1 and tracking shows it still hasn't left the state. What a fucking joke and embarrassment for this country!

Yup, and the zine I mailed you on the 14th, along with 17 others have not even been scanned in the system as accepted by USPS yet. I'm keeping an eye on it daily, apologies.

Not your fault. You got it to the post office timely which is all you could do.

[Welly]

Now we’ll finally get to the bottom of things.

[Welly]

Now we’ll finally get to the bottom of things.