dag nasty bad religion black flag - overrated

[clash77]

How about these alternatives..Husker Du.better than all of them..I would replace the 3 Dag "wet dreams" with the Clash..Dead Boys..The Ramones..End of story..

[john stabb]

All of the bands mentioned have a solid place in Punk Rock. It's silly to be trading them around like baseball cards.

Just don't bring up Green Day in all this because they don't belong in Punk Rock.

[MXV]

Husker Du was better than most bands

[Chris Shary]

Well said Mr. Stabb.

[JGJR]

Well said Mr. Stabb.

This.

[version sound]

Any band worth rating will be overrated by someone at some point.

[Janelle]

Clash77, to quote Lunachicks, "say what you mean": you like Supertouch above all else

[JGJR]

Lunachicks

Now that was a great NYC band that no one else will probably mention, at least early on circa the double 7" with "Sugar Luv," "Get Off the Road," etc. and even up to Jerk of All Trades. I listened to that 2x7" not that long ago and it didn't hold up as well as I hoped, but I loved it at the time.

[yourenotevil]

different bands mean different things to different people(obviously), but no damn way can you call black flag overrated. even if you don't like the later stuff, they were one of the most prolific and influential bands in hardcore, from their music to their ethics to their artwork/aesthetic.

[clash77]

let me clarify ..I didn't do a good job making my point( and that's on me) The " love affair" for these bands on this board is amusing and repetetive.. That was my point.I could have phrased it differently..For the record, I referenced 3 bands that I grew up listening to( and love)..Just havin a little fun..I have no problem speaking my mind and wil continue to do so..I do think Black Flag would have been better with Kenny G/Chuck Mangione in the band!!!

[yourenotevil]

let me clarify ..I didn't do a good job making my point( and that's on me) The " love affair" for these bands on this board is amusing and repetetive.. That was my point.I could have phrased it differently..For the record, I referenced 3 bands that I grew up listening to( and love)..Just havin a little fun..I have no problem speaking my mind and wil continue to do so..I do think Black Flag would have been better with Kenny G/Chuck Mangione in the band!!!

well, considering the origins of this board, the dag love makes total sense. black flag are big with people everywhere of all ages, if you saw the black flag tattoo book, it was mostly filled with people who were not born when the original line up was alive and kicking. i am not a bad religion nut, but if someone said these were their favorite three punk bands of all time, i wouldn't have anything bad to say about it.

[patient_ot]

It's funny how opinions differ and tastes change over time.

For example, when I first heard "can I say", I didn't like it because my 16 year old ears were expecting something harder like Minor Threat. It took about 6 months to grow on me. Over the years, as much as I love MT I've listened to Dag a lot more.

I like so much different stuff it's often hard to pick favorites, even among favorite records, let along singling out bands. I wouldn't want to be without any of the bands the OP mentioned.

One thing though, I think the order in which one hears things affects one's taste. For example, I heard a lot of 80s and 90s music (punk included) before I really got into a lot of '77 type punk. I think that's why years later I'm reaching for things like "Suffer" more often than "Young, Loud, and Snotty" even though my tastes have evolved greatly. And if we're talking about the Clash, I will probably never love anything by them as much as "London Calling" simply because I heard that first, no matter how I might try to justify it in terms of musical elements/sound.

[patient_ot]

different bands mean different things to different people(obviously), but no damn way can you call black flag overrated. even if you don't like the later stuff, they were one of the most prolific and influential bands in hardcore, from their music to their ethics to their artwork/aesthetic.

Later Black Flag definitely takes a lot of heat, but its funny to listen to some of that stuff now and see how it influenced certain bands years later. I only very recently became interested in post-Damaged Black Flag...as a teenager I could've never get into it.

[yourenotevil]

different bands mean different things to different people(obviously), but no damn way can you call black flag overrated. even if you don't like the later stuff, they were one of the most prolific and influential bands in hardcore, from their music to their ethics to their artwork/aesthetic.

Later Black Flag definitely takes a lot of heat, but its funny to listen to some of that stuff now and see how it influenced certain bands years later. I only very recently became interested in post-Damaged Black Flag...as a teenager I could've never get into it.

i heard stuff like first four years first, but at the same rollins book came out and i just sought the later stuff out on my own. i think i had live 84 first(as far as later stuff went) because it was really long and was a good value to get on tape. i truly enjoy all eras of the band, and now with the internet blog era could can hear all of the later era live shows which i think are better than the albums for the most part.

[john stabb]

I love the Keith/Dez-vocal era the most. Henry was great on Damaged LP & TV Party 7". The line-up for My War tour were great live but I am not a fan of that album. Kira was a fantastic bassist during the Slip it In tour but I have even more issues with that record so I wasn't crazy about experiencing it live. The albums after that became the Henry/Greg Experience & didn't seem to be Black Flag any longer. By the time they got to Who's got the biggest dick size album, it just seemed to be a Black Flag greatest hits cover-band. If I was Henry, I would've left after Slip it In & formed another band w/ Chuck Dukowski BB & Chuck Biscuits. But that's just me. Sounds like a killer band, huh.

[version sound]

I love the Keith/Dez-vocal era the most. Henry was great on Damaged LP & TV Party 7". The line-up for My War tour were great live but I am not a fan of that album. Kira was a fantastic bassist during the Slip it In tour but I have even more issues with that record so I wasn't crazy about experiencing it live. The albums after that became the Henry/Greg Experience & didn't seem to be Black Flag any longer. By the time they got to Who's got the biggest dick size album, it just seemed to be a Black Flag greatest hits cover-band. If I was Henry, I would've left after Slip it In & formed another band w/ Chuck Dukowski BB & Chuck Biscuits. But that's just me. Sounds like a killer band, huh.

Nailed it.

[version sound]

For example, when I first heard "can I say", I didn't like it because my 16 year old ears were expecting something harder like Minor Threat. It took about 6 months to grow on me. Over the years, as much as I love MT I've listened to Dag a lot more.

I wanted something more like Brotherhood. Even though I enjoy Dag Nasty greatly, I still prefer Brotherhood.

[john stabb]

Nice to be in agreement on that, VS.

[john stabb]

Any others feel remotely the same Just curious.

[captain2man]

DYS's Brotherhood over Dag?

Not by any stretch......as much as I really do like DYS (even the second "metal" record), they're not in the same league as Dag. They don't even play the same sport.

[gregpolard]

DYS's Brotherhood over Dag?

Not by any stretch......as much as I really do like DYS (even the second "metal" record), they're not in the same league as Dag. They don't even play the same sport.

This, to a "t"

[JGJR]

let me clarify ..I didn't do a good job making my point( and that's on me) The " love affair" for these bands on this board is amusing and repetetive.. That was my point.I could have phrased it differently..For the record, I referenced 3 bands that I grew up listening to( and love)..Just havin a little fun..I have no problem speaking my mind and wil continue to do so..I do think Black Flag would have been better with Kenny G/Chuck Mangione in the band!!!

well, considering the origins of this board, the dag love makes total sense. black flag are big with people everywhere of all ages, if you saw the black flag tattoo book, it was mostly filled with people who were not born when the original line up was alive and kicking. i am not a bad religion nut, but if someone said these were their favorite three punk bands of all time, i wouldn't have anything bad to say about it.

I found out last night that the guy who did that Black Flag tattoo book is a friend of several friends and I had no clue before that. What a small world!

Oh and my attempt to divert this thread to have you all discuss The Lunachicks clearly was not successful. Alas!

[version sound]

DYS's Brotherhood over Dag?

Not by any stretch......as much as I really do like DYS (even the second "metal" record), they're not in the same league as Dag. They don't even play the same sport.

This, to a "t"

Sure, you kids like the mellow melodic shit. Give me old school XClaim hardcore over that nonsense any day.

Even if we're only talking DC punk rock circa 85-90, Dag is close to the bottom of the list.

[gregpolard]

DYS's Brotherhood over Dag?

Not by any stretch......as much as I really do like DYS (even the second "metal" record), they're not in the same league as Dag. They don't even play the same sport.

This, to a "t"

Sure, you kids like the mellow melodic shit. Give me old school XClaim hardcore over that nonsense any day.

Even if we're only talking DC punk rock circa 85-90, Dag is close to the bottom of the list.

Can you really call Dag "mellow"? Especially "Can I Say". Also, this is a Dag message board so people liking them a lot can't be that much of a surprise.

[version sound]

I'm always surprised how crazy people are about Dag Nasty. I consider myself a fan, but I was a bigger fan of ROS, Embrace, One Last Wish, Scream circa TSU, Gray Matter circa TIB, Fugazi, Ignition, Rain, King Face, etc...

As for the mellow part, yeah people didn't really sing in hardcore in 85/86, except maybe Kevin Seconds.

[yourenotevil]

DYS's Brotherhood over Dag?

Not by any stretch......as much as I really do like DYS (even the second "metal" record), they're not in the same league as Dag. They don't even play the same sport.

This, to a "t"

Sure, you kids like the mellow melodic shit. Give me old school XClaim hardcore over that nonsense any day.

Even if we're only talking DC punk rock circa 85-90, Dag is close to the bottom of the list.

at 15 i was hearing both for the first time and i think i just put it all in the same boat since i didn't really have a time frame reference between the two. i clearly knew dag nasty were more mellow than dys, but to me it was a natural extension of where some hc bands had gone.

[tango fistula]

So DYS is the high water mark?!

SIEGE and DEEP WOUND put that boyscout nonsense in its proper context for me...as did Mission of Burma, DMZ, Real Kids, Proletariat and The Freeze.

I never liked bullies and jocks..regardless of how tough the music sounded.

[danny]

i'm a big tent punk rocker. there is room for dag nasty and husker du right along side swervedriver, killing joke, the clash, the psychotic pineapple, the fast, bad brains, the jam, dinosaur jr., the fastbacks, the stooges, deadboys, mc5, poster children, crass, the nipple erectors, metal urbane, the saints, siouxsie, the slits and countless other bands.

including green day.

it doesn't mean i have to like them all equally, or at all. and certainly some are more punk rock than others. and some are probably overrated. but i've grown content in my own taste and predilections and try to teach my kids not to judge other people by their tastes, lest they be equally judged. this got tricky for me when my oldest got into green day. but i've grown to appreciate them (through him). so...tool and blink 182 are certainly overrated in my book. but as far as i'm concerned, it takes nothing away from the bands i do like. that is simply the musical karma that their fans will have to endure when they die and are judged by joe strummer at the gates to musical heaven. in the meantime, who am i to judge?

[version sound]

So DYS is the high water mark?!

For Smalley? Yes

SIEGE and DEEP WOUND put that boyscout nonsense in its proper context for me...

You mean straightedge or the concept of brotherhood? Siege and Deep Wound were both good, but they fit perfectly in a conversation about overrated bands.

I never liked bullies and jocks..regardless of how tough the music sounded.

Ummm...and the bullies are who? The Boston Crew?

[yourenotevil]

So DYS is the high water mark?!

For Smalley? Yes

SIEGE and DEEP WOUND put that boyscout nonsense in its proper context for me...

You mean straightedge or the concept of brotherhood? Siege and Deep Wound were both good, but they fit perfectly in a conversation about overrated bands.

I never liked bullies and jocks..regardless of how tough the music sounded.

Ummm...and the bullies are who? The Boston Crew?

siege ain't no joke.

i imagine the bully comments refers to later era boston and esp NYHC bands and audiences.

[john stabb]

Like Danny, I'm working on letting more bands into that punk tent. I've said my peace on bands like Green Day & all but I'm starting to think that (even if I don't like a lot of these groups because they seem not to fit into the "punk" genre) they are the gateway drug for kids to discover so many of the original 1977-end of the 80's Punk Rock. And I guess that's okay in the long run. Overrated, underrated. Whatever.

[tango fistula]

i imagine the bully comments refers to later era boston and esp NYHC bands and audiences.[/quote]


You are correct.

I watched the northeast go from creative and all inclusive and diverse to a big crowd of teenage
boys all dressed alike, all sounding alike and with the same narrow ideology... I don't blame dag or BR for that stuff...they didn't push that strict set of rules on impressionable kids. But...BUT...I know which groups did. It wasn't just SSD and DYS...Connecticut was also to blame for this. It was a horrible time for any band that wasn't "Crew". I pretty much stuck to international punk and HC until about 1990..which is when all those horrible bands started to vanish and a creative wave pushed the rest of their fans into day trading, the military or the police force.

[scannest]

... pushed the rest of their fans into day trading, the military or the police force.

That made me smile. The 10th floor of my office bulding is devoted to some day trading firm and I swear I can tell if the guy getting on the eleavtor is getting off on 10 based on his idea of "business casual" attire. I have never been wrong.

[captain2man]

So DYS is the high water mark?!

For Smalley? Yes

Yeah?....we don't hear sound the same way.

[scannest]

So DYS is the high water mark?!

For Smalley? Yes

Yeah?....we don't hear sound the same way.

Can I tell my funny story again? Those who already know it can look away


When we asked Dave to sing on the Rule of Thumb 7" he said, "Sure. What voice do you want?" We asked him to explain and he said he could give us DYS or Dag or ALL. He could do them all, we just needed to say which. And Aquaman and I both started saying in unison (a bit too loudly) "ALL PLEASE. ALL PLEASE."

[version sound]

i imagine the bully comments refers to later era boston and esp NYHC bands and audiences.

You are correct.

I watched the northeast go from creative and all inclusive and diverse to a big crowd of teenage
boys all dressed alike, all sounding alike and with the same narrow ideology... I don't blame dag or BR for that stuff...they didn't push that strict set of rules on impressionable kids. But...BUT...I know which groups did. It wasn't just SSD and DYS...Connecticut was also to blame for this. It was a horrible time for any band that wasn't "Crew". I pretty much stuck to international punk and HC until about 1990..which is when all those horrible bands started to vanish and a creative wave pushed the rest of their fans into day trading, the military or the police force.

I've decried that jocky crew shit on this very board (well, on the previous board, actually). I never had any interest in that shit. Are DYS and SSD to blame? I guess, partially at least. It all goes back to Ian and Henry in the end, though, doesn't it?

[captain2man]

So DYS is the high water mark?!

For Smalley? Yes

Yeah?....we don't hear sound the same way.

Can I tell my funny story again? Those who already know it can look away


When we asked Dave to sing on the Rule of Thumb 7" he said, "Sure. What voice do you want?" We asked him to explain and he said he could give us DYS or Dag or ALL. He could do them all, we just needed to say which. And Aquaman and I both started saying in unison (a bit too loudly) "ALL PLEASE. ALL PLEASE."

Very cool!!

Dave produced our first album (Drafted, 1998)....he was awesome to work with and lent his vocals to two of our songs. To this day, when I go back and re-listen to that album (not that I do that all that often), I still get a little chill down my spine hearing one of my idols sing on a couple of our songs.

When we played with DBL last August he came on stage and did his parts on those two songs with us....we've played with DBL and The Sharpshooters a few times, but that was the first time he actually performed those parts live.

[gregpolard]

Like Danny, I'm working on letting more bands into that punk tent. I've said my peace on bands like Green Day & all but I'm starting to think that (even if I don't like a lot of these groups because they seem not to fit into the "punk" genre) they are the gateway drug for kids to discover so many of the original 1977-end of the 80's Punk Rock. And I guess that's okay in the long run. Overrated, underrated. Whatever.

Exactly! If it wasn't for Nirvana and Green Day and R.E.M. and bands like that (granted R.E.M. aren't really punk but you get the idea) I never would've dived deeper into hc/punk, because they all namechecked a lot of the greats.

[gregpolard]

So DYS is the high water mark?!

For Smalley? Yes

Yeah?....we don't hear sound the same way.

Can I tell my funny story again? Those who already know it can look away


When we asked Dave to sing on the Rule of Thumb 7" he said, "Sure. What voice do you want?" We asked him to explain and he said he could give us DYS or Dag or ALL. He could do them all, we just needed to say which. And Aquaman and I both started saying in unison (a bit too loudly) "ALL PLEASE. ALL PLEASE."

Very cool!!

Dave produced our first album (Drafted, 1998)....he was awesome to work with and lent his vocals to two of our songs. To this day, when I go back and re-listen to that album (not that I do that all that often), I still get a little chill down my spine hearing one of my idols sing on a couple of our songs.

When we played with DBL last August he came on stage and did his parts on those two songs with us....we've played with DBL and The Sharpshooters a few times, but that was the first time he actually performed those parts live.

I'm slow so forgive me, but what band are you in??

[gregpolard]

So DYS is the high water mark?!

For Smalley? Yes

Yeah?....we don't hear sound the same way.

Can I tell my funny story again? Those who already know it can look away


When we asked Dave to sing on the Rule of Thumb 7" he said, "Sure. What voice do you want?" We asked him to explain and he said he could give us DYS or Dag or ALL. He could do them all, we just needed to say which. And Aquaman and I both started saying in unison (a bit too loudly) "ALL PLEASE. ALL PLEASE."

This made me chuckle.

[captain2man]

I'm slow so forgive me, but what band are you in??

Two Man Advantage.

I also play in Too Many Voices and occasionally the Hudson Falcons....but the album Dave took part in was Two Man Advantage's first one.

[yourenotevil]

i imagine the bully comments refers to later era boston and esp NYHC bands and audiences.

You are correct.

I watched the northeast go from creative and all inclusive and diverse to a big crowd of teenage
boys all dressed alike, all sounding alike and with the same narrow ideology... I don't blame dag or BR for that stuff...they didn't push that strict set of rules on impressionable kids. But...BUT...I know which groups did. It wasn't just SSD and DYS...Connecticut was also to blame for this. It was a horrible time for any band that wasn't "Crew". I pretty much stuck to international punk and HC until about 1990..which is when all those horrible bands started to vanish and a creative wave pushed the rest of their fans into day trading, the military or the police force.

I've decried that jocky crew shit on this very board (well, on the previous board, actually). I never had any interest in that shit. Are DYS and SSD to blame? I guess, partially at least. It all goes back to Ian and Henry in the end, though, doesn't it?

i think it is hard to lay blame at one person's feet. DYS and SSD def seemed to have the jock mentality about some sxe aspects of hardcore, but i am not sure how much of it was fiction. i do think the violent aspect of hc would have found its way into the scene with out without ppl like ian and henry though. i didn't grow up in a neanderthal scene, but i did come up in one where everyone was either wearing crass patches and a wannabe crustie or they were crazy ass people into the last wave of real powerviolence bands. both elements were pretty interested in giving you a ton of shit of you didn't look like them and i can sympathize with standing out from the norm.

[version sound]

I've heard a lot more stories about the early DC crew busting heads than I have heard about the Boston Crew. Seems like there was plenty of jocky violence coming from skaters and surfers in the early LA scene too.

[yourenotevil]

I've heard a lot more stories about the early DC crew busting heads than I have heard about the Boston Crew. Seems like there was plenty of jocky violence coming from skaters and surfers in the early LA scene too.

england def had it's fair share as well in the uk82 scenes and esp in oi. fast, aggressive music just brings out those type of people that want to fight and hurt other people regardless of what the band or scene is.

[JGJR]

I've heard a lot more stories about the early DC crew busting heads than I have heard about the Boston Crew. Seems like there was plenty of jocky violence coming from skaters and surfers in the early LA scene too.

My understanding is that this is where the DC kids got the idea from, specifically when Teen Idles went out to LA and saw slamdancing.

[john stabb]

Exactamundo, JGJR. teen idles & Henry brought back the West Coast badass & bandanas (Hank even wore spurs on his boots because Darby had 'em). The bandanas & boots lasted from 1980-82 but the badass continued throughout 83 with some punks not in bands. It was those guys who wanted to keep the violent spiked (or nailed) wristbands on. Those were the Henry-worshippers but by then even Henry gave up his boots, spurs, and bandanas for the Flag-thing. Those guys feel like Henry betrayed them and frowned upon the DC punks. He was in his Black Flag state of mind. He tried hard to disown himself from our Punk because he was caught up in Flag.

And with TSOL playing their 1st DC gig in 82 w/ G.I., Jack influenced me to become the Clown Prince of DC Punk. I gave up boots/ bandanas and was wearing my goofy wardrobe when G.I. & Double-O played CBGB - Boston w/ NOFX & SSD. Those guys were trying to out-Punk us with their much-more-violent speedy slam/punch/kick-thrash. SSD w/ friends actually pissed off a bunch of us in DC with that on the dance floor. Before they came to our town, we were all about the slamming & diving but it was a small circle of friends. Boston kids were trying to hurt people. That was their scene. And it got pretty ignorant & fascist. Real fast. Nobody in DC Punk knocked a beer or joint out of someone's hand. That was Boston.

I won't lie & say Ian + others got into a lot of fights early on. I got into a few stupid ones, too. One day in Georgetown w/ Ian & John Falls (who had a temper) 2 preppie kids gave Falls shit for having his tattered leather jacket (w/ DISCHARGE in white-out across the back). The kids looked like they came from a prom & Falls went after them, banging them against a store window. Luckily it didn't break but Ian & I tried to pull him off this one kid when the kid started yelling "They're trying to kill us!". Out of nowhere, bam-bam, we got sucker-punched by someone. Leaning back, 2 grinning Marines were in our faces. "Bam! bam! bam!", Ian hit this dude straight in the face. The guy just smiled at him & we went "Oh shit" being chased around a few parked cars by this guys who merely just wanted to whale on someone, anyone. They ran off laughing & jumping down the sidewalk. We had a story to tell the other DC Punks. Shit like that happened but we weren't looking for it. I had a huge anger problem. So did Ian. It was never 10 on 1 or anything like a gang fight. Those Punks in Boston looked for it. We didn't. Definitely no way near angels without attitudes (I was with Ian when he tried to reason his way out some nights outside his job) but sometimes we fought. By 83 I really didn't want to fight anyone anymore but my anger issues needed working on. Ian got more pacifistic after Minor Threat. Fighting sucks. Fighting's stupid. It's just not worth it.

[tango fistula]

Heres whats cool...
Its ALOT better than it used to be.
Most jocks no longer like aggressive rock music and funny hair doesn't get you
beat up in the streets anymore....unless you are in a bad part of town or the deep south.
The good ol days SUCKED...we just had a great soundtrack

[version sound]

Yeah, as I've said here before, it wasn't cool being a 10 or 11 year old kid being threatened by grown-ass men for the offense of wearing a Sex Pistols pin. The good old days weren't so great socially. Luckily, I never had problems in school, just in public with dudes 10 years older than me. It's pretty fucking funny that having been into punk/HC when it was uncool is now considered cool.