What's the big deal?

[Janelle]

Or was like a few years ago (!) with the (International) Noise Conspiracy? Like I mentioned a little while ago I was going through promos that either were listened to once or never and I'm just putting on this 'Armed Love' record and okay whatever nothing so hot. Nothing spectacular. Hey if some of you guys like it that's cool. I never said I have taste! ha oh just looking at the bare-boned thing I have white card with black type of song titles, american label, wasn't that what all the Danzig stuff was on?!

[Janelle]

And speaking of Danzig, I used to go all the time when he played in NYC and was super-excited that first time he had Doyle playing and it was cool when it seemed like it was a "one-off" with him and Doyle playing like seven-song Misfits set. But then I saw it a second time not too long after the first. Then this last time they played (last night) and they keep hyping that part... Ahh I want to know if they still play the same seven songs! Enough people I know went to that instead of CH3...

[Gary]

International Noise Conspiracy are one of the worst bands I've ever seen. And I liked Refused ok.

Only saw Danzig once,he was opening for Metallica on the Justice For All tour,they played a Misfits tune,but I can't remember what it was at this stage. It was great though.

[Janelle]

International Noise Conspiracy are one of the worst bands I've ever seen. And I liked Refused ok.

Only saw Danzig once,he was opening for Metallica on the Justice For All tour,they played a Misfits tune,but I can't remember what it was at this stage. It was great though.

Okay, cool - about INC that you're on the same page! Yeah, maybe they got the hype costhe singer of Refused... I guess that's what it was.

[Gary]

Probably would have been limited enough hype though,Took a while after Refused split for them to get big. When Refused played here,there can't have been more than 30 payers.

I put them on two nights in a row in Ireland(Belfast and Dundalk) the Dundalk one was taped,there was maybe a handful more people at it than Belfast.

[Michele]

1) loved a lot Refused but never get into Int. Noise Conspiracy, heard a pair of songs and saw some pics with a Horrible look, so decided to drop them, don't know, saw Refused when a bunch of Young raskalls supporting 108 in Bologna and loved them, I love quite all their stuff and apreciated the evolution, but Int. Noise Consp. weren't my stuff.
Love Danzig first four albums than lost interest after that industrial record blackacidevil or somethign like... then heard a pair of later albums but to em the magic was gone.
another band I really can't apreciate, The Mars Volta (while I used to loveAt The drive in).

[Janelle]

1) loved a lot Refused but never get into Int. Noise Conspiracy, heard a pair of songs and saw some pics with a Horrible look, so decided to drop them, don't know, saw Refused when a bunch of Young raskalls supporting 108 in Bologna and loved them, I love quite all their stuff and apreciated the evolution, but Int. Noise Consp. weren't my stuff.
Love Danzig first four albums than lost interest after that industrial record blackacidevil or somethign like... then heard a pair of later albums but to em the magic was gone.
another band I really can't apreciate, The Mars Volta (while I used to loveAt The drive in).

Michele! Totally with you about Danzig first four! Sometimes people are like all about the first three but I do like #4 too! But yeah ew that 5 and 6 were hideous!!!!!!!!

[gregpolard]

Never got into INC either. But Refused were cool.

[version sound]

Only saw Danzig once,he was opening for Metallica on the Justice For All tour,they played a Misfits tune,but I can't remember what it was at this stage. It was great though.

You were lucky. I saw Metallica on that tour and we got Queensryche for openers.

[Gary]

ooof!!! bad luck.

[JGJR]

The Mars Volta (while I used to loveAt The drive in).

I feel the exact same way. I said it on the old board, but they are one of the worst bands I have ever seen. It was just a complete wankfest basically.

[JGJR]

Only saw Danzig once,he was opening for Metallica on the Justice For All tour,they played a Misfits tune,but I can't remember what it was at this stage. It was great though.

You were lucky. I saw Metallica on that tour and we got Queensryche for openers.

I actually liked Operation Mindcrime quite a lot around that time, but I don't remember the last time I had the urge to hear it. I also liked an early album of theirs called The Warning and I think I still own it, too. I'd be more likely to play that one. It's like Maiden-lite with more overtly political lyrics, basically.

[yourenotevil]

Only saw Danzig once,he was opening for Metallica on the Justice For All tour,they played a Misfits tune,but I can't remember what it was at this stage. It was great though.

You were lucky. I saw Metallica on that tour and we got Queensryche for openers.

I actually liked Operation Mindcrime quite a lot around that time, but I don't remember the last time I had the urge to hear it. I also liked an early album of theirs called The Warning and I think I still own it, too. I'd be more likely to play that one. It's like Maiden-lite with more overtly political lyrics, basically.

i always respected QR because they were like the only "big" metal band from seattle when it was a no man's land out there. i back the first ep a lot, as it is solid american metal. i like fair warning too, but after that it got too progressive for me. i saw them open for maiden in 99 without the original guitar players and they were pretty forgettable.

[yourenotevil]

Never got into INC either. But Refused were cool.

to me they were one of the bands that put the final nail in the coffin for 90s hardcore.

[scannest]

Saw (I)NC open for RFTC and thought they had a great live show. High energy, super tight, just really exciting. None of their records ever did much for me.
Tried several times to listen to Refused and don't get the appeal at all.

[the mean]

Never got into INC either. But Refused were cool.

to me they were one of the bands that put the final nail in the coffin for 90s hardcore.

I thought they were terrible, ripping of the Make-Up, presentation-wise, and not offering much musically. I never thought they had anything much to do with 90s HC, though.

[yourenotevil]

Never got into INC either. But Refused were cool.

to me they were one of the bands that put the final nail in the coffin for 90s hardcore.

I thought they were terrible, ripping of the Make-Up, presentation-wise, and not offering much musically. I never thought they had anything much to do with 90s HC, though.

i remember them starting as more of a hc band, (esp the project x rip off/tribute band they had, can't remember the name though), but when that dropped in 1998 i remember hc kids digging it and they played shows with bands from that scene. that was like when converge and botch were basically becoming synonymous with hardcore and all of that screamo/metalcore shit was peaking. i would say that album has a lot more fans these days then when it came out, but to me that scene was one of the reasons why i didn't go to a hardcore show for about 6 years or something. it was either that kind of shit, cheesy sxe revival bands or shit like american nightmare.

[Gary]

i remember them starting as more of a hc band, (esp the project x rip off/tribute band they had, can't remember the name though),

Final Exit?

I have the 7",it's awesome. I think they did a cd as well.

[Janelle]

1) loved a lot Refused but never get into Int. Noise Conspiracy, heard a pair of songs and saw some pics with a Horrible look, so decided to drop them, don't know, saw Refused when a bunch of Young raskalls supporting 108 in Bologna and loved them, I love quite all their stuff and apreciated the evolution, but Int. Noise Consp. weren't my stuff.
Love Danzig first four albums than lost interest after that industrial record blackacidevil or somethign like... then heard a pair of later albums but to em the magic was gone.
another band I really can't apreciate, The Mars Volta (while I used to loveAt The drive in).

Yeah! I never liked The Mars Volta either and I liked At The Drive In. I liked Sparta though... Guess no one here did. I still put that on every now and then

[yourenotevil]

i remember them starting as more of a hc band, (esp the project x rip off/tribute band they had, can't remember the name though),

Final Exit?

I have the 7",it's awesome. I think they did a cd as well.

yeah that was it.

[version sound]

1) loved a lot Refused but never get into Int. Noise Conspiracy, heard a pair of songs and saw some pics with a Horrible look, so decided to drop them, don't know, saw Refused when a bunch of Young raskalls supporting 108 in Bologna and loved them, I love quite all their stuff and apreciated the evolution, but Int. Noise Consp. weren't my stuff.
Love Danzig first four albums than lost interest after that industrial record blackacidevil or somethign like... then heard a pair of later albums but to em the magic was gone.
another band I really can't apreciate, The Mars Volta (while I used to loveAt The drive in).

Yeah! I never liked The Mars Volta either and I liked At The Drive In. I liked Sparta though... Guess no one here did. I still put that on every now and then

I liked the first Sparta record. I could never stomach The Mars Volta, though.

[patient_ot]

I liked Refused. Songs to Fan the Flames had it's share of fans at the time of it's release, and even though it was distributed in the U.S. by Victory (they were on a Swedish label), the band did mostly smaller scale shows AFAIK when they came to U.S. They were nowhere near as popular as say Earth Crisis, or even Snapcase, which played much larger clubs at the time (I'm thinking around '96-98). When Shape of Punk came out, no one other than the previous little cult fanbase they had paid attention to it until a couple of years later. Part of this was due to some of the music being licensed for little TV intros and such on MTV.

I thought INC were boring and gimmicky. RE: ATDI, I liked their debut LP the best, and didn't like anything they did after their second album. The major label stuff basically sounded like slick nu-metal to me.

And I agree that by the end of the 99/2000, the whole '90s hardcore thing was dead in the water. I think it had a lot to do with nothing really original coming out and a whole bunch of bands just ripping off the superficial elements of the big name bands at the time. There were a couple decent youth crew revival bands (Mouthpiece and Battery come to mind) but it got way out of hand. Same thing with the ultra-tech/chaotic metal core stuff...after Dillinger Escape Plan came out with the "running board" e.p., Coalesce did a few e.p.s suddenly everyone wanted to sound like that (Deadguy, Converge, and Cave-In were common bands to rip off also). If you look at the kind of crap labels like Ferrett and Equal Vision were putting out at the time, you can see how awful things had gotten. The smaller DIY labels were just as bad - lots of nth generation screamy emo bands, 3rd rate political stuff, and quasi-crust. I basically gave up on hardcore around this time and stopped following it.

I didn't hear any "new" hardcore that I thought was good until I heard the band Paintbox a few years ago. Now that was an incredible band that was unfortunately cut short.

[JGJR]

i always respected QR because they were like the only "big" metal band from seattle when it was a no man's land out there. i back the first ep a lot, as it is solid american metal. i like fair warning too, but after that it got too progressive for me. i saw them open for maiden in 99 without the original guitar players and they were pretty forgettable.

I saw them around that same time (early 2000 when they touring for Q2K; don't ask me why I remember that other than that it's of course a silly play on Y2K; I've never heard that record nor do I have much of a desire to) and I have to concur. I thought DeGarmo was still in the band then, though, but I just checked and you are right. He left in '97.

[MXV]

Danzig still tours with Doyle because otherwise no one gives a shit about him and won't come to the shows. He hasn't put out a good record since Danzig 4 and likely never will again. You'd think that with his waning popularity that he'd be thankful that someone would care enough to take a photo of him but the dude is just an asshole. He also is out of shape and gets winded part way through the set. He is well past his "sell by" date.

I never paid attention to Refused back when they were an active band and I never recall owning their records but I shot their show when they did that reunion and I was really impressed. I sort of understood why people were so into them based on how good they were. I have since picked up that "shape of punk to come" album and really like it.

[john stabb]

I saw the Noise whatever thing on "Late Night with Greg Whatever before Craig Killbourne" & thought they were completely copping the Make-Up, too. I thought "Why would anyone want to ripoff the Make-Up, but that's just me. Never heard Refused but people rave about them so they're not high on my list of bands to hear.

Hated At the Drive In seeing them on Letterman. I remember a friend coming back from Cali raving about how these guys were just like ROS & just thinking they were a bunch of Hispanic kids with Afros jumping around/yelling to their awful noise. Even Letterman said "Don't quit your studies, boys".

Sparta or Mars Volta bored me even more.

Danzig Haven't dug his solo-thang since "Mother". Poor, pudgy, ego-monster, Danzig.

[MXV]

I'm with you on Sparta and Mars Volta Stabb but I loved the last At the Drive In album (Relationship of Command).

[JGJR]

I'm with you on Sparta and Mars Volta Stabb but I loved the last At the Drive In album (Relationship of Command).

This (never heard Sparta), meaning I love that At the Drive-In album, too. Sure, it had a nu-metal guy producing, but it definitely doesn't sound like a nu-metal album. Rites of Spring is very inaccurate to describe their, but Fugazi (or more accurately, bands influenced by Fugazi, RoS and the like in the early '90s like Floodgate, Current, et al.) are a more apt comparison. Only mean will probably get that Floodgate reference (hope I'm wrong), but anyhow...

I remember playing Born Against in the car one day and then we turned on the radio and they were having a countdown and "One Armed Scissor" came on. My wife said that it was basically like a more produced version of the Born Against disc we listened to. I couldn't agree more, so that's probably why I liked it so much when it came out. It still holds up today, too.

[gregpolard]

Agree re: ATDI. That last album still holds up so well.

[patient_ot]

I'm honestly surprised at how much love the final ATDI album gets these days. Several people I knew at the time didn't like it.

[Gary]

Never liked ATDI ,a bandmate at the time was really into them before they got big,but they just did nothing for me. I saw them then and thought they were terrible live too. I laughed at them and thought,maybe they should mime.

[john stabb]

"C'mon, mime is money". Gary, that might've helped the group because I found there "we're so chaotic live" thing to be a bit forced. My friend was comparing ATDI to ROS in their "emotional wildness" upon a stage not their sound. No matter how much ROS were chaotic live, it always seemed sincere chaos. Never planned or forced. Hangskin & I did hate seeing such lovely guitars such as Guy's Rickenbacker being tossed so haphazardly @ gigs.

[MXV]

A funny thing about ATDI is my first exposure to them was seeing a video for "one armed scissor" on MTV in the middle of the night when I was up and couldn't sleep. I liked it so much I went out a couple of days later and bought the LP and loved almost the entire thing. I don't think any of their previous records comes anywhere close to how great I think that record is.

I probably got their first CD sent to me by flipside as a promo as they used to send me all their releases but I likely gave it to one of the other writers to review without even listening to it or giving it a second look.

[Janelle]

A funny thing about ATDI is my first exposure to them was seeing a video for "one armed scissor" on MTV in the middle of the night when I was up and couldn't sleep. I liked it so much I went out a couple of days later and bought the LP and loved almost the entire thing. I don't think any of their previous records comes anywhere close to how great I think that record is.

I probably got their first CD sent to me by flipside as a promo as they used to send me all their releases but I likely gave it to one of the other writers to review without even listening to it or giving it a second look.

Cool story! Yeah, "One Armed Scissor" is pretty awesome. My fave was always "Enfilade." The other record I have is 'in/Casino/Out'

[Janelle]

Danzig still tours with Doyle because otherwise no one gives a shit about him and won't come to the shows. He hasn't put out a good record since Danzig 4 and likely never will again. You'd think that with his waning popularity that he'd be thankful that someone would care enough to take a photo of him but the dude is just an asshole. He also is out of shape and gets winded part way through the set. He is well past his "sell by" date.

I never paid attention to Refused back when they were an active band and I never recall owning their records but I shot their show when they did that reunion and I was really impressed. I sort of understood why people were so into them based on how good they were. I have since picked up that "shape of punk to come" album and really like it.

Oh ha I mentioned seeing him with Doyle that first time and it was a big selling point. So when Doyle came onstage with Glenn he got more applause!! I'm like Danzig must've hated that he didn't get all the attention ha

[Janelle]

1) loved a lot Refused but never get into Int. Noise Conspiracy, heard a pair of songs and saw some pics with a Horrible look, so decided to drop them, don't know, saw Refused when a bunch of Young raskalls supporting 108 in Bologna and loved them, I love quite all their stuff and apreciated the evolution, but Int. Noise Consp. weren't my stuff.
Love Danzig first four albums than lost interest after that industrial record blackacidevil or somethign like... then heard a pair of later albums but to em the magic was gone.
another band I really can't apreciate, The Mars Volta (while I used to loveAt The drive in).

Yeah! I never liked The Mars Volta either and I liked At The Drive In. I liked Sparta though... Guess no one here did. I still put that on every now and then

I liked the first Sparta record. I could never stomach The Mars Volta, though.

Yeah, VS that first one. I never heard anything else. I had gotten an EP for review before the debut came out and it had "Mye" and I forget what else and I loved that song. Then I finally got the CD 'Wiretap Scars' and I just remember listening to it in Indianapolis in like '01 or '02 I guess during my time at a tennis tournament there!

[JGJR]

A funny thing about ATDI is my first exposure to them was seeing a video for "one armed scissor" on MTV in the middle of the night when I was up and couldn't sleep. I liked it so much I went out a couple of days later and bought the LP and loved almost the entire thing. I don't think any of their previous records comes anywhere close to how great I think that record is.

I probably got their first CD sent to me by flipside as a promo as they used to send me all their releases but I likely gave it to one of the other writers to review without even listening to it or giving it a second look.

I have to confess that seeing that video was my first exposure to them as well. And I agree completely. I've heard some stuff from their previous records and none of it really did that much for me, either.

[Michele]

i remember them starting as more of a hc band, (esp the project x rip off/tribute band they had, can't remember the name though),

Final Exit?

I have the 7",it's awesome. I think they did a cd as well.

back in the days I was with the Italian distributor for all the Swedish stuff out for Desperate Fight Records run by Jose of Abhinanda, I also attended a great Abhinanda show with 108. They had refused, fianl exit, shield and many other cool Swedish bands. Refused were pure hc in the beginning then turned into something more various, but also their albums were great to me.

[Gary]

Abhinanda were great,and my favourite of all those bands. Had them play here a few times and they were always great people and really easy to work with.

[yourenotevil]

haha, never thought i would hear abhinanda talk on this board, esp in positive tones.

[JGJR]

haha, never thought i would hear abhinanda talk on this board, esp in positive tones.

Indeed. Next thing you know, folks will be singing the praises of Doughnuts.

[yourenotevil]

haha, never thought i would hear abhinanda talk on this board, esp in positive tones.

Indeed. Next thing you know, folks will be singing the praises of Doughnuts.

fuck, i think i can safely say no one except someone who banged a member of doughnuts has anything positive to say about them, and even that might be a bad review!

[JGJR]

haha, never thought i would hear abhinanda talk on this board, esp in positive tones.

Indeed. Next thing you know, folks will be singing the praises of Doughnuts.

fuck, i think i can safely say no one except someone who banged a member of doughnuts has anything positive to say about them, and even that might be a bad review!

Ouch! Weren't some of the guys in Strife or maybe another prominent '90s sXe band (Snapcase?) dating some of the members of that band at one point? Sorry if this gets too gossipy, but you brought it up.

[yourenotevil]

haha, never thought i would hear abhinanda talk on this board, esp in positive tones.

Indeed. Next thing you know, folks will be singing the praises of Doughnuts.

fuck, i think i can safely say no one except someone who banged a member of doughnuts has anything positive to say about them, and even that might be a bad review!

Ouch! Weren't some of the guys in Strife or maybe another prominent '90s sXe band (Snapcase?) dating some of the members of that band at one point? Sorry if this gets too gossipy, but you brought it up.

i don't think snapcase were technically a sxe band, even though they didn't use drugs, at least initially. i doubt anyone really dated them, as they were from sweden or something. i am sure strife and snapcase might have done debaucherous things to them at the victory "mansion" though.

[Michele]

guess someone in Strife had a relationship with some in Doughnuts, I still have their cds and quite enjoyed them back in the days
Btw, to me Abhinanda and Shield were great.

[The Snake]

Ha, just found about this older thread.

Never was into Int. Noise C., but was and I´m still into Refused, especially Songs To Fan The Flames Of Discontent & The Shape Of Punk To Come, both great albums.
Final Exit was also a great band, I have everything from them. Final Exit had two Refused members and two Abhinanda members.
Btw, also love Abhinanda (Shield & Separation too), I saw them on their last tour in 1998.
On their official website they wrote that the show in Zagreb was their best show on tour. And it was a really awesome show.

As for hardcore going bad in late 90.´s/early 2000.´s, it depends how you look at it. Some great hardcore bands actually started in the late 90´s, like DS - 13. E. T. A, Dead Nation, Life´s Halt, Last In Line, Full Speed Ahead and so on. And those bands definitely better presented what hardcore is than some Converge wannabes. 2000.´s was also a great decade for hardcore punk music.