Harley Flanagan: Not Self-Aware or Just Full of Shit?

[version sound]

I watched New York Hardcore Chronicles the other night, and during the chapter about crossover, he was claiming that it was AOQ not Best Wishes that was their big crossover record. Although that might be true, he was citing specific songs and saying no hardcore band sounded like that. That is just generally not true, but the thing that really stood out was the fact that he didn’t credit Bad Brains for being a huge influence and doing everything he claimed Cro-Mags brought to hardcore YEARS before them. Does he somehow not realize that AOQ plays like a tribute record to early Bad Brains? Is he actually so deluded that he thinks he came with all of that on his own?

[captain2man]

They were both released in '86, so I'm honestly not sure which record was recorded or released first, but seems to me that Agnostic Front's 'Cause for Alarm' should get a lot more credit as one of the first crossover records.

It was a literal merging of hardcore guys (Miret, Stigma, Kabula) and metal guys (Kinion & Beatto) to create something that was a pure blend of styles.

[SamDBL]

I feel like John Joseph does enough of kissing Bad Brains' collective ass for 1000 people. Has that dude ever *not* praised them in an interview? He just did a Joe Rogan episode about dietary stuff. I'm kind of curious how he worked Bad Brains into that.
I've always loved that first Cro Mags record. I do remember a lot of my friends being turned off to it for being too metal.

[captain2man]

I feel like John Joseph does enough of kissing Bad Brains' collective ass for 1000 people. Has that dude ever *not* praised them in an interview? He just did a Joe Rogan episode about dietary stuff. I'm kind of curious how he worked Bad Brains into that.
I've always loved that first Cro Mags record. I do remember a lot of my friends being turned off to it for being too metal.

I listened to the first hour or so of that podcast before moving on to something else.

I think a lot of those early NYHC guys who led impossibly difficult lives as kids and who were a bit lost and directionless and drug addicted really gravitated towards the Bad Brains - the PMA and the introduction of Rastafari.

For people like us, the Bad Brains are a classic hardcore band who put out some legendary all-time records.

But I think for guys like John Joseph, Roger Miret, Harley....I think the Bad Brains were literally life changing for them in ways that go far beyond the bounds of just musical influence.

[version sound]

I don’t fault them for being BB influenced, plenty of bands were, but in his specific case, he actually hung out and played with those guys before he got Cro Mags together, so there is a clear direct influence there. Yes, JJ overdoes it, so maybe it all equals out in the end.

[version sound]

They were both released in '86, so I'm honestly not sure which record was recorded or released first, but seems to me that Agnostic Front's 'Cause for Alarm' should get a lot more credit as one of the first crossover records.

It was a literal merging of hardcore guys (Miret, Stigma, Kabula) and metal guys (Kinion & Beatto) to create something that was a pure blend of styles.

I like AF much more than Cro Mags, but that’s mainly based on their first two records. I’ve probably heard Cause For Alarm two times, so I’m not that familiar with it, but it did get a lot of credit in the doc. I was very happy to see that Crumbsuckers got some credit (for once). Life of Dreams is easily my favorite crossover record by a hardcore band (I think the metal bands actually did it better for the most part).

[Markonomicon]

Harley, along with the AF dudes, seem like the most garbage humans.

Both terrible (minus the Victim In Pain lp, which was ok at best).

Bad Brains were influential, but goddamn they're one of the most overrated bands ever for only having 15 or so good songs.

It took me a few years to even be able to make it through HR's shrieking.

[version sound]

I have my qualms with Bad Brains, mostly to do with HR’s homophobic bullshit, but it’s hard to deny what a huge influence they were on east coast hardcore (at the very least). I’ve heard how jaw droppingly amazing they were in the early days from enough people who were there to take it as a fact. So, even if you don’t love their music, you have to at least recognize that they were an essential building block of American hardcore. Cro-Mags may have also been hugely influential, but it was in perpetuating a macho moshcore style of hardcore that jocks could get into. They were one of the big reasons that “hardcore” evolved into some sub-metal bullshit for fucking meatheads through the ‘90s and into the ‘00s.

[SamDBL]

They were definitely ny meat head music. *But* they were the pinnacle of it, imo. They never came close to replicating that first album, though.

[JGJR]

They were definitely ny meat head music. *But* they were the pinnacle of it, imo. They never came close to replicating that first album, though.

All of that; plus I hear lots of Motorhead and Black Sabbath on AOQ in addition to the massive Bad Brains influence. Harley wasn't always that way, though. Apparently, a trip to Northern Ireland either towards the end of The Stimulators or right after that really changed him.

[lewdd]

I think there are 1 or 2 Cro-Mags songs that I can tolerate listening to and probably none that I would put on a playlist for someone else.

[lewdd]

Coincidentally, I just got an email with a pick of Harley on the cover of the upcoming issue of Down for Life magazine.

https://downforlifezine.bigcartel.com/p ... 1-cro-mags

[version sound]

They were definitely ny meat head music. *But* they were the pinnacle of it, imo. They never came close to replicating that first album, though.

All of that; plus I hear lots of Motorhead and Black Sabbath on AOQ in addition to the massive Bad Brains influence. Harley wasn't always that way, though. Apparently, a trip to Northern Ireland either towards the end of The Stimulators or right after that really changed him.

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy AOQ and the demo, but definitely not as much as a lot of people. Musically, I don’t hear that much new in either. COC, Void, Discharge...making hardcore heavy was nothing new.

[Hal]

COC, Void, Discharge...making hardcore heavy was nothing new.

Exactly.

[SamDBL]

They were definitely ny meat head music. *But* they were the pinnacle of it, imo. They never came close to replicating that first album, though.

All of that; plus I hear lots of Motorhead and Black Sabbath on AOQ in addition to the massive Bad Brains influence. Harley wasn't always that way, though. Apparently, a trip to Northern Ireland either towards the end of The Stimulators or right after that really changed him.

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy AOQ and the demo, but definitely not as much as a lot of people. Musically, I don’t hear that much new in either. COC, Void, Discharge...making hardcore heavy was nothing new.

I would definitely not say it broke any new ground. But I just thought it was the best example of that crew cut metal moshcore that specifically New York hardcore was all about at that time. I liked cause for alarm and the first Soia album, too. I just thought there was something that really tied AOQ together really well. Possibly the drummer was a big part. I think that guitar player probably had a lot to do with it, too. I only say that because everything they have done without those two guys in the band at the same time has been ultra generic and boring, imo.

[JGJR]

I would definitely not say it broke any new ground. But I just thought it was the best example of that crew cut metal moshcore that specifically New York hardcore was all about at that time. I liked cause for alarm and the first Soia album, too. I just thought there was something that really tied AOQ together really well. Possibly the drummer was a big part. I think that guitar player probably had a lot to do with it, too. I only say that because everything they have done without those two guys in the band at the same time has been ultra generic and boring, imo.

100%; love the CFA 7" and especially early SOIA, too. I like Harley's vocals as much as you like Guy's. I'll leave it at that.

[Gary]

All of that; plus I hear lots of Motorhead and Black Sabbath on AOQ in addition to the massive Bad Brains influence. Harley wasn't always that way, though. Apparently, a trip to Northern Ireland either towards the end of The Stimulators or right after that really changed him.

Stimulators played a couple of gigs in Ireland and Harley got his head shaved for the first time by members of the Outcasts,that's always the story I heard anyways. There is photo of him getting his head shaved that i'm sure is easy enough to find

I love both demo and lp versions of AOQ,first Bad Brains and ROIR,and Victim in PAin is possibly my favourite US hardcore lp.