The Public Image is Rotten Box Set

[version sound]

Anyone bite on this one or planning to? Since I already had nearly everything on the Metal Box super deluxe, I never got that one. This one has the stuff I wanted from that one and more...

[drew]

Anyone bite on this one or planning to? Since I already had nearly everything on the Metal Box super deluxe, I never got that one. This one has the stuff I wanted from that one and more...

This is like a better version of Plastic Box Some cool extras but I dont think Im going to splurge. I have the Metal Box & ALBUM deluxe boexes so I'm all set

[version sound]

I basically have everything on it except for some alt mixes and one or two outtakes, but I'm still tempted for some reason.

[Welly]

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[version sound]

Lydon has lost the plot.

Lost it long ago, if you ask me.

[Welly]

.

[lewdd]

I just did my quick listen through the discography of PiL and determined that I can tolerate 35 songs. Not sure I could sit through listening to them for the 2.5+ hours that the 35 songs encompass though. I was quite surprised that there were that many songs on the list. I was expecting 10-15. That would probably be the number that I could put on a playlist and listen to straight through. That Was Is Not LP seemed to have the most tracks on the list than any other album.

[patient_ot]

I just did my quick listen through the discography of PiL and determined that I can tolerate 35 songs. Not sure I could sit through listening to them for the 2.5+ hours that the 35 songs encompass though. I was quite surprised that there were that many songs on the list. I was expecting 10-15. That would probably be the number that I could put on a playlist and listen to straight through. That Was Is Not LP seemed to have the most tracks on the list than any other album.

Is that just skipping through songs while hearing 20 seconds of each one?

[lewdd]

I just did my quick listen through the discography of PiL and determined that I can tolerate 35 songs. Not sure I could sit through listening to them for the 2.5+ hours that the 35 songs encompass though. I was quite surprised that there were that many songs on the list. I was expecting 10-15. That would probably be the number that I could put on a playlist and listen to straight through. That Was Is Not LP seemed to have the most tracks on the list than any other album.

Is that just skipping through songs while hearing 20 seconds of each one?

Yes, that is my approach. If I don't like the beat or rhythm, I move onto the next song. If I don't like the beginning, I usually skip thru the song a bit to see if something changes.

[patient_ot]

I just did my quick listen through the discography of PiL and determined that I can tolerate 35 songs. Not sure I could sit through listening to them for the 2.5+ hours that the 35 songs encompass though. I was quite surprised that there were that many songs on the list. I was expecting 10-15. That would probably be the number that I could put on a playlist and listen to straight through. That Was Is Not LP seemed to have the most tracks on the list than any other album.

Is that just skipping through songs while hearing 20 seconds of each one?

Yes, that is my approach. If I don't like the beat or rhythm, I move onto the next song. If I don't like the beginning, I usually skip thru the song a bit to see if something changes.

You can do whatever you want, just know you're cheating yourself a bit there and not really listening to the songs at all.

PIL had one masterpiece and that was Metal Box/Second Edition. It's all most people really need. I do like the debut quite a bit also. Flowers of Romance has some merit, but it's tough to take and I doubt most people on this board would like it at all. After that the original band was done and it's most Lydon with hired guns to varying degrees of success with the groundbreaking period of the band long gone.

[lewdd]

I never thought I would listen to or like jazz and the pandemic brought me around on liking some jazz albeit a very small era and a limited list of artists.

Maybe the next pandemic will bring me around on dub, electronica, avant-funk, and/or post-punk.

[version sound]

Flowers of Romance was the first PiL record I bought. It was the newest one at the time. To say that it was a shock to a kid who was a huge Pistols fan is an enormous understatement. Still, I tried again with Second Edition. That one was a little better, but I still didn’t really connect with it. Ironically, I never owned Public Image until it came out on CD. My sister had it, but other than the title track and “Low Life,” I didn’t really connect with that one much either. In the 90s, I gave Second Edition a second shot and it started to grow on me. I also picked up a used copy of the first LP on vinyl, but it was the reissue from the mid-80s, and it still didn’t totally click. Fast forward to the early ‘00s, and for some reason I decided I wanted a first pressing of the first album (by then, I was on my second copy of the actual Metal Box). When I put that thing on, everything changed. That fucking bass just floored me. The right first press of that record dominates Metal Box in the bass department - I’ve compared them back to back. It’s not all first pressings (I have 4; not all have the booming bass), but if you get the right one, it’ll really knock you out. That really changed how I felt about that record, it’s now my favorite PiL record.

TLDR Version: Early PiL rewards those who persevere. You are cheating yourself by just listening to snippets, especially as a Pistols fan. Early PiL was Lydon’s creative peak, IMO.

[lewdd]

https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5jWnW ... 8e3a16408f

[patient_ot]

Version, which early pressing of the first album has that heavy bass? You got matrix numbers or a lacquer cutter sig for that?

[version sound]

Version, which early pressing of the first album has that heavy bass? You got matrix numbers or a lacquer cutter sig for that?

I’ll have to bust them out to see which is which and note matrix info. I think I have 3 copies of the UK pressing (plus the Japanese and Australian pressings), IIRC, 2 out of 3 had it.

[patient_ot]

Version, which early pressing of the first album has that heavy bass? You got matrix numbers or a lacquer cutter sig for that?

I’ll have to bust them out to see which is which and note matrix info. I think I have 3 copies of the UK pressing (plus the Japanese and Australian pressings), IIRC, 2 out of 3 had it.

Thanks, appreciate it.

[JGJR]

TLDR Version: Early PiL rewards those who persevere. You are cheating yourself by just listening to snippets, especially as a Pistols fan. Early PiL was Lydon’s creative peak, IMO.

100% this as far as the 1st 3 PiL albums being his artistic peak, though I have likely listened to Bollocks more than any of those and love it just as much if not more since I first heard it when I was 15.

My experience was a bit different, though. I started out on 9 and That What is Not, which were popular when I was in high school. I liked those fine at the time, but don't know what I'd think of them now. I didn't get any of the early records until some point in the mid '90s when I got Second Edition. I didn't really know what to make of it at first, but it really grew on me over time. I think it's still my favorite PiL record. Some years later thanks to you (VS), I got an early press of the 1st Lp and bought the Light in the Attic (I think) repress at the same time. I should A/B them at some point, but anyway I like that album a lot, too. I still can't remember if it's actually called Public Image or First Issue or what, though I remember a discussion about that on this board years ago.

Flowers of Romance - had it on CD and now have a vinyl copy; got into it in the mid '00s; not one I pull out a lot, but I do like it and appreciate its proggy, repetitive, bravery. Violin, drums, and vocals? I'm in. What's even better is the 12" version of the title track, though. That is essential and might be the key to unlocking the album for some folks.

I think This is What You Want... and the s/t are OK at best. They each have incredible singles, though. I like Commercial Zone a bit more, but don't own a physical copy of that one.

[version sound]

Version, which early pressing of the first album has that heavy bass? You got matrix numbers or a lacquer cutter sig for that?

I’ll have to bust them out to see which is which and note matrix info. I think I have 3 copies of the UK pressing (plus the Japanese and Australian pressings), IIRC, 2 out of 3 had it.

Thanks, appreciate it.

Interesting, they are all different pressings. I mostly compared the beginning of “Theme” before, this time, I checked the B side too and found that all three have pretty heavy bass on the B side

Heavy bass:

V-2114+A 4 [4 actually looks more like an L] 3-PiL + THIS SIDE +
V-2114-B4 [4 is scratched out] 3 4—PiL +

V-2114 6 6-PiL +
V-2114 B4

Less bass on A Side (though still not lacking):

V-2114 A2E
V-2114+B4 3PiL- + THAT SIDE+

The Japanese pressing sounds great, probably because it has ZERO surface noise, but it has less bass. Tom Lyle argued that it was “more balanced,” which is probably true, but Wobble is the thing I love most about PiL, so the more the better for me. I also pulled out my Japanese Second Edition, and that sounds fantastic too. 97% as good as the original Metal Box.

[version sound]

My experience was a bit different, though. I started out on 9 and That What is Not, which were popular when I was in high school. I liked those fine at the time, but don't know what I'd think of them now. I didn't get any of the early records until some point in the mid '90s when I got Second Edition. I didn't really know what to make of it at first, but it really grew on me over time. I think it's still my favorite PiL record. Some years later thanks to you (VS), I got an early press of the 1st Lp and bought the Light in the Attic (I think) repress at the same time. I should A/B them at some point, but anyway I like that album a lot, too. I still can't remember if it's actually called Public Image or First Issue or what, though I remember a discussion about that on this board years ago.

The album is actually called Public Image. That’s what it says on the spine and in the ads when it came out. The cover was a parody of a magazine, hence the “First Issue”. The red/green label ‘80s pressing does not have the bass of the OG press. That was the one I bought used in the ‘90s. When I got a first press in the ‘00s, I was floored by the bass. It was a very different experience from the versions I had up until then (mostly on CD). The LITA version looks nice, and all the bonus swag is great, but it’s basically the 2011 remaster on vinyl. I kept the swag and sold the record.

[patient_ot]

Interesting, they are all different pressings. I mostly compared the beginning of “Theme” before, this time, I checked the B side too and found that all three have pretty heavy bass on the B side

Heavy bass:

V-2114+A 4 [4 actually looks more like an L] 3-PiL + THIS SIDE +
V-2114-B4 [4 is scratched out] 3 4—PiL +

V-2114 6 6-PiL +
V-2114 B4

Less bass on A Side (though still not lacking):

V-2114 A2E
V-2114+B4 3PiL- + THAT SIDE+

The Japanese pressing sounds great, probably because it has ZERO surface noise, but it has less bass. Tom Lyle argued that it was “more balanced,” which is probably true, but Wobble is the thing I love most about PiL, so the more the better for me. I also pulled out my Japanese Second Edition, and that sounds fantastic too. 97% as good as the original Metal Box.

Good info, thanks for that. I will have to put some of these on my wishlist.

Looks like Virgin mixed and matched stampers for some of those. Incredibly common with major labels in the 70s and 80s, but also a bit frustrating at times.

I wonder if that Japanese Second Edition is less expensive than the OG Metal Box? I'll have to check. I don't have any vinyl versions of these albums at the moment, just CDs. I'd like to have vinyl, but there are limits to what I'll pay and I have to wait for them to show up through the sellers/stores I deal with.

The only PIL vinyl I own at present is the Paris live album.

[JGJR]

My experience was a bit different, though. I started out on 9 and That What is Not, which were popular when I was in high school. I liked those fine at the time, but don't know what I'd think of them now. I didn't get any of the early records until some point in the mid '90s when I got Second Edition. I didn't really know what to make of it at first, but it really grew on me over time. I think it's still my favorite PiL record. Some years later thanks to you (VS), I got an early press of the 1st Lp and bought the Light in the Attic (I think) repress at the same time. I should A/B them at some point, but anyway I like that album a lot, too. I still can't remember if it's actually called Public Image or First Issue or what, though I remember a discussion about that on this board years ago.

The album is actually called Public Image. That’s what it says on the spine and in the ads when it came out. The cover was a parody of a magazine, hence the “First Issue”. The red/green label ‘80s pressing does not have the bass of the OG press. That was the one I bought used in the ‘90s. When I got a first press in the ‘00s, I was floored by the bass. It was a very different experience from the versions I had up until then (mostly on CD). The LITA version looks nice, and all the bonus swag is great, but it’s basically the 2011 remaster on vinyl. I kept the swag and sold the record.

I have both the LITA version and that '80s press (which you gave me; thanks!), but have never heard an original. I really want to now after reading that.

[version sound]

I wonder if that Japanese Second Edition is less expensive than the OG Metal Box? I'll have to check. I don't have any vinyl versions of these albums at the moment, just CDs. I'd like to have vinyl, but there are limits to what I'll pay and I have to wait for them to show up through the sellers/stores I deal with.

The only PIL vinyl I own at present is the Paris live album.

The Japanese SE seems to be gettable for around $30 without the poster and maybe without the OBI. The big barrier is shipping cost, since most are obviously in Japan. One good thing about buying from Japan is that they tend to be pretty conscientious and accurate graders. More so than in the UK, at least (IME). The first album used to be really cheap. I bought all three of mine for under $20, and two of them are flat-out mint. They look brand new. I think the prices have gone up a bit, but if you’re patient, it can be had for relatively cheap.

[patient_ot]

The Japanese SE seems to be gettable for around $30 without the poster and maybe without the OBI. The big barrier is shipping cost, since most are obviously in Japan. One good thing about buying from Japan is that they tend to be pretty conscientious and accurate graders. More so than in the UK, at least (IME). The first album used to be really cheap. I bought all three of mine for under $20, and two of them are flat-out mint. They look brand new. I think the prices have gone up a bit, but if you’re patient, it can be had for relatively cheap.

Yeah I'm in no rush. I'll wait it out.

[JGJR]

The Japanese SE seems to be gettable for around $30 without the poster and maybe without the OBI. The big barrier is shipping cost, since most are obviously in Japan. One good thing about buying from Japan is that they tend to be pretty conscientious and accurate graders. More so than in the UK, at least (IME). The first album used to be really cheap. I bought all three of mine for under $20, and two of them are flat-out mint. They look brand new. I think the prices have gone up a bit, but if you’re patient, it can be had for relatively cheap.

Yeah I'm in no rush. I'll wait it out.

You guys are talking about the 1980 Japanese vinyl pressing, correct, not the much later 2011 CD?

https://www.discogs.com/Public-Image-Lt ... se/2528489

Either way, I assume so given the reviews. I have a U.S. Second Edition 2xLp and while I haven't tried it out on the Technics yet, I noticed a huge improvement in the bass even listening to lossy mp3s of the UK Metal Box (not sure the source) years ago.

[patient_ot]

You guys are talking about the 1980 Japanese vinyl pressing, correct, not the much later 2011 CD?

https://www.discogs.com/Public-Image-Lt ... se/2528489

Either way, I assume so given the reviews. I have a U.S. Second Edition 2xLp and while I haven't tried it out on the Technics yet, I noticed a huge improvement in the bass even listening to lossy mp3s of the UK Metal Box (not sure the source) years ago.

Yeah, I already have the 2011 CD. I don't have any version on vinyl and Version was recommending a Japan pressing of SE as cheaper alternative to the O.G. 3x12'' Metal Box.

[JGJR]

You guys are talking about the 1980 Japanese vinyl pressing, correct, not the much later 2011 CD?

https://www.discogs.com/Public-Image-Lt ... se/2528489

Either way, I assume so given the reviews. I have a U.S. Second Edition 2xLp and while I haven't tried it out on the Technics yet, I noticed a huge improvement in the bass even listening to lossy mp3s of the UK Metal Box (not sure the source) years ago.

Yeah, I already have the 2011 CD. I don't have any version on vinyl and Version was recommending a Japan pressing of SE as cheaper alternative to the O.G. 3x12'' Metal Box.

Thanks for clarifying. I've seen the O.G. 3x12" in stores, but usually for much more than I'm willing to pay, so I appreciate this! The thread (or at least that part of it) was a bit hard to follow because of the different variations/formats, etc.

[version sound]

Thanks for clarifying. I've seen the O.G. 3x12" in stores, but usually for much more than I'm willing to pay, so I appreciate this! The thread (or at least that part of it) was a bit hard to follow because of the different variations/formats, etc.

Yeah, the original Japanese vinyl. I think there was only one pressing. It says Second Edition on the front cover, but Metal Box on the spine. I owned the US vinyl in the ‘80s, then several CD versions, including the one in the little metal box. In the ‘00s, I had the original German pressing on vinyl, then grabbed the Japanese pressing. Since I had the original Metal Box, and the Japanese Second Edition, I got rid of the German pressing. I also got the 2011 remastered CD when it came out, which is the best version on CD, IMO. Then, I ordered the Japanese SACD, even though I didn’t have an SACD player at the time. Thankfully, Jah provided, and I found a nice Oppo on the free shelf in my building. The SACD is better than the 2011 CD, so I sold the CD. Oh yeah, I also had the 4MWB Metal Box reissue, which wasn’t even worth it for the packaging, which just felt cheap compared to the real thing. The sound was nothing to write home about either.

Long story short, these are my favorite versions:

1. Original 3x12 Metal Box though it’s a pain in the ass to get out of the tin, and a pain to flip if you're in a lazy mood. Also, crazy expensive these days.
2. Japanese LP/SACD - these sound a lot alike. There might be slightly more detail in the SACD, which was a flat transfer from the master tapes (probably done at the time of the 2011 remasters, which came out in Japan first).
3. 2011 remaster CD - sounds as good as this record has ever sounded on CD.

I know there has been a lot of debate about the value of SACD as a format, but the Japanese really seem to do it right. IIRC, they are generally flat transfers from master tapes without a PCM step, straight DSD. The Second Edition and Sticky Fingers Japanese SHM SACDs I have sound amazing. The MFSL SACD of Forever Changes also sounds pretty great. Maybe it’s more about the source and mastering (or apparent lack of on the Japanese SACDs) than the format itself, I don’t really care. These are all records I’ve known well for decades and have had multiple versions of, and the SACDs really do sound great. I believe there are Japanese SHM CDs that use the same source as the SACDs. It would be interesting to compare the two to see if the SACD really offers superior resolution or if the great sound is really down to the source and mastering.

[patient_ot]

I know there has been a lot of debate about the value of SACD as a format, but the Japanese really seem to do it right. IIRC, they are generally flat transfers from master tapes without a PCM step, straight DSD. The Second Edition and Sticky Fingers Japanese SHM SACDs I have sound amazing. The MFSL SACD of Forever Changes also sounds pretty great. Maybe it’s more about the source and mastering (or apparent lack of on the Japanese SACDs) than the format itself, I don’t really care. These are all records I’ve known well for decades and have had multiple versions of, and the SACDs really do sound great. I believe there are Japanese SHM CDs that use the same source as the SACDs. It would be interesting to compare the two to see if the SACD really offers superior resolution or if the great sound is really down to the source and mastering.

I'm not sure it's possible to make an SACD without some editing in PCM. You can't really do much editing or any kind of mastering work in DSD, so everything has to be converted to PCM, then back to DSD again. Even if no mastering or EQ is applied (kinda doubtful) there has to be some basic editing like track fades, sequencing, or taking out stuff that might be on the mixdown master that wasn't meant for the album.

Trying to record in DSD has the same and more problems. That is why pure DSD recordings with no PCM whatsoever are things like classical instrument soloists or small ensembles captured with one or two room mics. I actually did buy some of those to try to them out, and was not convinced of the supposed superiority of the DSD format over PCM conversions I made with software on my computer. They basically sound the same, even on 3 different DACs, speakers vs. headphones, etc.

Now, if you do take an SACD and CD with the same mastering and try to compare them, just be aware that the SACD (if you hack firmware and rip it) needs to be volume boosted by anywhere from +3 to +6db. This isn't exact because SACDs don't follow a consistent standard, even though they are supposed to (The Scarlet Book). An SACD rip that doesn't have the gain applied properly will also "trick" the DR meter and leave people thinking the content is more dynamic than it really is.

Now, if the mastering is good, nothing wrong with SACD, but really unnecessary for 2 channel stereo listening IMHO, and I never bought into the format because I hate the idea of copy protected discs where I have to jump through a bunch of hoops to rip them. Hardware is also an issue since many cheaper players are subpar and will decimate the output through RCAs, if they even have them. Oppo really left a hole in the market when they stopped making their players and that stuff is expensive now on the secondary market, even units that are timebombs for failure because they are 10+ years old.

RE: SHM-CD, I have a few and there are some more I'd like to get. The actual format and special plastic or whatever is used to make them offers no audible sound quality advantages. It's all in the mastering, whether it's good or bad, just like any other format. There are some that have the same mastering as Japanese single-layer SACDs. Where the mastering is different than a widely available U.S. or European CD that's cheaper, they can be worth buying. The downside is they go OOP quickly and get expensive on the secondary market. You also have to be very careful what you buy, because the Japanese labels are also releasing generic mastering on SHM-CDs. You really have to pay close attention to the catalog numbers.

One trend that I really hate though, are MQA-CDs. Sadly this is becoming a trend with the Universal catalog in Japan, and by now we know that MQA is nothing more than a licensing scam and the actual audio is lossy codec with a bunch of extra DSP and distortion we don't need. I refuse to support that shit.