Musings on Black Flag

Musings on Black Flag

Postby pedro » Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:20 am

Keith Morris' musings on the early years, Ginn and the rise of FLAG.

http://m.vice.com/read/black-flag-anatomy-of-a-lawsuit

Legs McNeil wrote:Keith Morris and I have been pals for about a million years, ever since I crashed on his floor after another drunken night hanging out in LA during the 1970s. In the 80s, when I was working at SPIN, I borrowed a copy of Hardcore California (a book about the Southern California punk scene) from him and never returned it. I’d shudder whenever I came across the book. Last year I finally sent it back to him with my most sincere apologies, and that sort of rekindled our friendship. Since I’ve always been confused about Keith’s time in Black Flag, the Circle Jerks, and the whole California hardcore scene, I thought what better way to get some clarity than to interview Keith and let him explain it himself? We talked on the phone for four or five hours and Keith laid out the entire history of the hardcore scene. It probably helped that I started off by saying, “Talk to me like I’m a moron and don’t know any of this stuff.”

A month after we finished the interview, Greg Ginn, the guy who co-founded Black Flag with Morris, initiated a lawsuit against Keith, along with Dez Cadena, Chuck Dukowski, Bill Stevenson, and Stephen Egerton, because they have been touring under the name Flag, giving the fans a taste of true hardcore punk rock. Henry Rollins is also named in the lawsuit. Since Greg Ginn’s Black Flag has become a bloated, monotonous carcass of everything we hate about rock 'n' roll, Flag got together to pass the torch to a new generation of headbangers and shame Greg Ginn’s band by showing the world how the noise should be played.

As this lawsuit travels through the courts, take a few minutes, as we travel back to those dark days of the 1970s when the world was one giant macraméd happy face and teenage angst was drowning in the swill of the deadly folk rock, back when a few fuckups dared to challenge the status quo….


Read on...
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby tango fistula » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:13 pm

I trust Morris as much as I do Ginn on this one.

Its all about the Duke and him getting a victory lap..which he sorely deserves.

That said....I wouldnt go to any configuration of BF/Flag nor would I buy a new release.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby pedro » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:51 am

tango fistula wrote:I trust Morris as much as I do Ginn on this one.

Its all about the Duke and him getting a victory lap..which he sorely deserves.

That said....I wouldnt go to any configuration of BF/Flag nor would I buy a new release.


i'm interested in hearing more about why you trust Morris as much as Ginn. While Morris certainly has the backing of more members of Black Flag than Ginn, I guess Hetson might have some issues with Morris. Just curious to hear your thoughts.

I also have no interest in either band. I'd rather just play the records if I have a Black Flag itch to scratch.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby JGJR » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:35 pm

pedro wrote:
tango fistula wrote:I trust Morris as much as I do Ginn on this one.

Its all about the Duke and him getting a victory lap..which he sorely deserves.

That said....I wouldnt go to any configuration of BF/Flag nor would I buy a new release.


i'm interested in hearing more about why you trust Morris as much as Ginn. While Morris certainly has the backing of more members of Black Flag than Ginn, I guess Hetson might have some issues with Morris. Just curious to hear your thoughts.

I also have no interest in either band. I'd rather just play the records if I have a Black Flag itch to scratch.


Did you see them in the '80s?
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby yourenotevil » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:43 am

pedro wrote:
tango fistula wrote:I trust Morris as much as I do Ginn on this one.

Its all about the Duke and him getting a victory lap..which he sorely deserves.

That said....I wouldnt go to any configuration of BF/Flag nor would I buy a new release.


i'm interested in hearing more about why you trust Morris as much as Ginn. While Morris certainly has the backing of more members of Black Flag than Ginn, I guess Hetson might have some issues with Morris. Just curious to hear your thoughts.

I also have no interest in either band. I'd rather just play the records if I have a Black Flag itch to scratch.



i am guessing it is because the artist who drew the circle jerks logo had to end up suing them since she never got paid. never got the whole story on that one.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby Welly » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:08 am

yourenotevil wrote:
pedro wrote:
tango fistula wrote:I trust Morris as much as I do Ginn on this one.

Its all about the Duke and him getting a victory lap..which he sorely deserves.

That said....I wouldnt go to any configuration of BF/Flag nor would I buy a new release.


i'm interested in hearing more about why you trust Morris as much as Ginn. While Morris certainly has the backing of more members of Black Flag than Ginn, I guess Hetson might have some issues with Morris. Just curious to hear your thoughts.

I also have no interest in either band. I'd rather just play the records if I have a Black Flag itch to scratch.



i am guessing it is because the artist who drew the circle jerks logo had to end up suing them since she never got paid. never got the whole story on that one.


News Flash! No-one got paid in the 80's.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby yourenotevil » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:16 am

Welly wrote:
yourenotevil wrote:
pedro wrote:
tango fistula wrote:I trust Morris as much as I do Ginn on this one.

Its all about the Duke and him getting a victory lap..which he sorely deserves.

That said....I wouldnt go to any configuration of BF/Flag nor would I buy a new release.


i'm interested in hearing more about why you trust Morris as much as Ginn. While Morris certainly has the backing of more members of Black Flag than Ginn, I guess Hetson might have some issues with Morris. Just curious to hear your thoughts.

I also have no interest in either band. I'd rather just play the records if I have a Black Flag itch to scratch.



i am guessing it is because the artist who drew the circle jerks logo had to end up suing them since she never got paid. never got the whole story on that one.


News Flash! No-one got paid in the 80's.



some people did. according to this, they sued her after using the image on VI and she signed over the rights. either way, shitty move on their part.


The Circle Jerks' 'mascot,' Shawn Kerri's 'skank kid,' is seen reworked on the band's album VI. According to notes accompanying the review at http://www.amazon.com/VI-Circle-Jerks/dp/B000003C4Z, "there were no contracts between Kerri and the band or the label or their managing agent, etc. The Circle Jerks' agent and record label decided that The Circle Jerks Inc. owned the 'skank kid' mascot, wouldn't pay Kerri, and even tried to sue her. To avoid a lawsuit ruining a friendship, Kerri signed over the rights to the 'skank kid' to Keith Morris, the band's founding vocalist, for free, just to end the dispute. Note the new commercially produced version (shown above, in this blog), which is conceptually a good distance from her hard-line, black and white inked drawing."
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby Welly » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:34 am

yourenotevil wrote:some people did.


You really care about this stuff don't you? :D
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby JGJR » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:57 am

I enjoyed reading this piece very much, so thanks for posting it, pedro.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby pedro » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:59 am

Welly wrote:News Flash! No-one got paid in the 80's.
yourenotevil wrote:some people did.


I don't understand. Welly states "No-one got paid in the 80's" and in rebuttal you post a story about Shawn Kerri not getting paid for the Circe Jerks skanking-dude? You're making his point, aren't you?

I don't know if either of you are 100% right, but I would have to come down on Welly's side because one thing is pretty clear to me. While some punk rockers were quite honorable and did make some money in the 80s, most punks did not get paid in the 80's.

JGJR wrote:Did you see them in the '80s?


I saw Henry, Greg, C'el and Anthony. Sometimes I can convince myself that they really were "Black Flag".
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby yourenotevil » Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:35 am

pedro wrote:
Welly wrote:News Flash! No-one got paid in the 80's.
yourenotevil wrote:some people did.


I don't understand. Welly states "No-one got paid in the 80's" and in rebuttal you post a story about Shawn Kerri not getting paid for the Circe Jerks skanking-dude? You're making his point, aren't you?

I don't know if either of you are 100% right, but I would have to come down on Welly's side because one thing is pretty clear to me. While some punk rockers were quite honorable and did make some money in the 80s, most punks did not get paid in the 80's.

JGJR wrote:Did you see them in the '80s?


I saw Henry, Greg, C'el and Anthony. Sometimes I can convince myself that they really were "Black Flag".


my original point was why someone might not trust keith morris since in some way he did the very thing to shawn that greg did to raymond or to him with this lawsuit. i was just posting that quote to nail down the actual story, which i had mixed up.

i can't defend every label or artist who put out shit in the 80s or know for sure who got paid and who didn't. i know for a fact ian mackaye stated in an interview he still sent out royalty checks from the early eps. he said he didn't do payments for flex your head since there were so many people and he couldn't keep track of them all.

but i do think making a blanket statement that no one got paid is kind of just playing devil's advocate. curtis from taang didn't pay everyone, but he clearly paid some people like jerry a, choke or john brannon or those guys would not have continuously let their records be pressed into the thousands on his label.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby gregpolard » Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:57 am

Image
scannest wrote:It's like a filmmaker saying "Spielberg is my idol. Every time I get behind the camera I think about how I can make my film as good as Hook"
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby tad ghostal » Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:13 pm

yourenotevil wrote:my original point was why someone might not trust keith morris since in some way he did the very thing to shawn that greg did to raymond or to him with this lawsuit. i was just posting that quote to nail down the actual story, which i had mixed up.

i can't defend every label or artist who put out shit in the 80s or know for sure who got paid and who didn't. i know for a fact ian mackaye stated in an interview he still sent out royalty checks from the early eps. he said he didn't do payments for flex your head since there were so many people and he couldn't keep track of them all.

but i do think making a blanket statement that no one got paid is kind of just playing devil's advocate. curtis from taang didn't pay everyone, but he clearly paid some people like jerry a, choke or john brannon or those guys would not have continuously let their records be pressed into the thousands on his label.


Just to play devil's advocate regarding Curtis and Taang, the fact that he continues to sell those records doesn't really mean anything. It's not like Jerry A or John Brannon could afford to take legal action.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby yourenotevil » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:42 pm

tad ghostal wrote:
yourenotevil wrote:my original point was why someone might not trust keith morris since in some way he did the very thing to shawn that greg did to raymond or to him with this lawsuit. i was just posting that quote to nail down the actual story, which i had mixed up.

i can't defend every label or artist who put out shit in the 80s or know for sure who got paid and who didn't. i know for a fact ian mackaye stated in an interview he still sent out royalty checks from the early eps. he said he didn't do payments for flex your head since there were so many people and he couldn't keep track of them all.

but i do think making a blanket statement that no one got paid is kind of just playing devil's advocate. curtis from taang didn't pay everyone, but he clearly paid some people like jerry a, choke or john brannon or those guys would not have continuously let their records be pressed into the thousands on his label.


Just to play devil's advocate regarding Curtis and Taang, the fact that he continues to sell those records doesn't really mean anything. It's not like Jerry A or John Brannon could afford to take legal action.



well,brannon was very recent and if they are pulling down the guarantees i am hearing i think he could prolly afford to do something about it.


i am sure choke or someone like al barille would have made it known if he was ripping those guys off, and they have been with him for years. i am sure he has ripped a fair amount of people off, but he must pick and choose or he would be in traction by now.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby tad ghostal » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:48 am

yourenotevil wrote:
tad ghostal wrote:
yourenotevil wrote:my original point was why someone might not trust keith morris since in some way he did the very thing to shawn that greg did to raymond or to him with this lawsuit. i was just posting that quote to nail down the actual story, which i had mixed up.

i can't defend every label or artist who put out shit in the 80s or know for sure who got paid and who didn't. i know for a fact ian mackaye stated in an interview he still sent out royalty checks from the early eps. he said he didn't do payments for flex your head since there were so many people and he couldn't keep track of them all.

but i do think making a blanket statement that no one got paid is kind of just playing devil's advocate. curtis from taang didn't pay everyone, but he clearly paid some people like jerry a, choke or john brannon or those guys would not have continuously let their records be pressed into the thousands on his label.


Just to play devil's advocate regarding Curtis and Taang, the fact that he continues to sell those records doesn't really mean anything. It's not like Jerry A or John Brannon could afford to take legal action.



well,brannon was very recent and if they are pulling down the guarantees i am hearing i think he could prolly afford to do something about it.


i am sure choke or someone like al barille would have made it known if he was ripping those guys off, and they have been with him for years. i am sure he has ripped a fair amount of people off, but he must pick and choose or he would be in traction by now.


Really? I heard that when he's not on tour, Brannon worked in a bar and was basically living paycheck to paycheck. Who knows? Anyway, I don't have any idea who Taang pays and doesn't pay, I'm saying that the fact that Taang continues to sell records by these bands isn't evidence that he pays them. Anybody still on SST can tell you that.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby xxxHunterxxx » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:55 am

tad ghostal wrote:
yourenotevil wrote:
tad ghostal wrote:
yourenotevil wrote:my original point was why someone might not trust keith morris since in some way he did the very thing to shawn that greg did to raymond or to him with this lawsuit. i was just posting that quote to nail down the actual story, which i had mixed up.
i can't defend every label or artist who put out shit in the 80s or know for sure who got paid and who didn't. i know for a fact ian mackaye stated in an interview he still sent out royalty checks from the early eps. he said he didn't do payments for flex your head since there were so many people and he couldn't keep track of them all.
but i do think making a blanket statement that no one got paid is kind of just playing devil's advocate. curtis from taang didn't pay everyone, but he clearly paid some people like jerry a, choke or john brannon or those guys would not have continuously let their records be pressed into the thousands on his label.

Just to play devil's advocate regarding Curtis and Taang, the fact that he continues to sell those records doesn't really mean anything. It's not like Jerry A or John Brannon could afford to take legal action.

well,brannon was very recent and if they are pulling down the guarantees i am hearing i think he could prolly afford to do something about it.


i am sure choke or someone like al barille would have made it known if he was ripping those guys off, and they have been with him for years. i am sure he has ripped a fair amount of people off, but he must pick and choose or he would be in traction by now.


Really? I heard that when he's not on tour, Brannon worked in a bar and was basically living paycheck to paycheck. Who knows? Anyway, I don't have any idea who Taang pays and doesn't pay, I'm saying that the fact that Taang continues to sell records by these bands isn't evidence that he pays them. Anybody still on SST can tell you that.


Yeah, Brannon flips burgers for a living. One of the crazy (and sad) things about punk is that people whose music has had a profound impact upon my life have wound up destitute while talentless hacks like Led Zeppelin are living large.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby Welly » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:35 am

Thinking about it, doesn't Morris wash dishes or something?

I had to laugh, in last month's MRR some faceless columnist did a little spiel about 'old jaded punks' and one of the lines was something like 'make sure you work in a shitty dead end job'. I thought, 'yeah, fuck you'.

It's a choice you make. You either go the bring home the bacon/poles in the hole route, or you join a band and go on tour, there's no middle ground unless you sign some deal, in which case all you'll get is an advance, and the label will never pay you, indie or major. It's the story of rock'n'roll.

Q. YNE - Why do you think Casella left Boston? That guy was legendary for being a rip-off by the mid eighties. And that was just record trades.

THE FREEZE - CONTRACT HIGH

How'd you ever sink this low?
Easily corrupted by the complete control
It never made much sense
Playing semantics with you
Since we made the break
We've all been waiting for you
All that wasted time
Waiting for you
All your figures lie
It got too hot behind the phone
So you moved to the West Coast
Screwed everyone you've known
You lied through promises
We all meant nothing to you
You've deflected threats
But something's waiting for you
All that wasted time
Waiting for you
All your figures lie
Waiting for you
It's all just wasted time
Small label, small mind
Waiting for you
It's all just wasted time
One day you'll check your mail
Good morning letter bomb
No prints no paper trail
You lied through promises
The bands meant nothing to you
You've deflected threats
Now something's waiting for you
All that wasted time
All your figures lied
Small label, small mind
Show us where to sign
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:01 am

tad ghostal wrote:
yourenotevil wrote:
tad ghostal wrote:
yourenotevil wrote:my original point was why someone might not trust keith morris since in some way he did the very thing to shawn that greg did to raymond or to him with this lawsuit. i was just posting that quote to nail down the actual story, which i had mixed up.

i can't defend every label or artist who put out shit in the 80s or know for sure who got paid and who didn't. i know for a fact ian mackaye stated in an interview he still sent out royalty checks from the early eps. he said he didn't do payments for flex your head since there were so many people and he couldn't keep track of them all.

but i do think making a blanket statement that no one got paid is kind of just playing devil's advocate. curtis from taang didn't pay everyone, but he clearly paid some people like jerry a, choke or john brannon or those guys would not have continuously let their records be pressed into the thousands on his label.


Just to play devil's advocate regarding Curtis and Taang, the fact that he continues to sell those records doesn't really mean anything. It's not like Jerry A or John Brannon could afford to take legal action.



well,brannon was very recent and if they are pulling down the guarantees i am hearing i think he could prolly afford to do something about it.


i am sure choke or someone like al barille would have made it known if he was ripping those guys off, and they have been with him for years. i am sure he has ripped a fair amount of people off, but he must pick and choose or he would be in traction by now.


Really? I heard that when he's not on tour, Brannon worked in a bar and was basically living paycheck to paycheck. Who knows? Anyway, I don't have any idea who Taang pays and doesn't pay, I'm saying that the fact that Taang continues to sell records by these bands isn't evidence that he pays them. Anybody still on SST can tell you that.



yeah, but i am saying he must be paying some people something. i think al barile would have taken back the SSD power lp if he was getting ripped off. he was ready to beat porcell in the late 80s when he thought that guy was booting the SSD records. i don't think choke would let anything slide either, even if curtis left boston. brannon just released the NA ep on the label last year, so you think he would have known if the guy was a total rip off artist. yeah, he is a fry cook at a bar, but NA has also played a ton of shows and i know their average guarantee(at least for fests) was around 7k, so that is not chump change when you take into account how many shows they have played in the last two years.

i also think at some point SST must have paid people in some form or another. why would sonic youth, dino jr, the bad brains and soundgarden sign to a label that would have a reputation of never paying out? chuck put out the wurm and SWA shit on there after he left BF, and he knew the inner working of the label better than anyone else. or why would the descendents with bill go back to SST for the ALL lp? why would watt and hurley go back if the minutemen never got paid? none of that adds up. at some point, ginn must have been paying royalties or cutting checks, esp to those who were close to him as far as proximity went
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby Welly » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:08 am

If you give that much of a shit, why don't you ask these people if they got paid by Taang/SST? They're all on the internet, and usually reply.

And besides, maybe JB likes being a fry cook. Work is work, that's why it's called work. I'd rather have a 'shit' job and a good life with my family than a 'good' job and a shit life never seeing them.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:17 am

Welly wrote:If you give that much of a shit, why don't you ask these people if they got paid by Taang/SST? They're all on the internet, and usually reply.

And besides, maybe JB likes being a fry cook. Work is work, that's why it's called work. I'd rather have a 'shit' job and a good life with my family than a 'good' job and a shit life never seeing them.



i don't really care that much, i was just making a point about everyone in the world claiming no band on sst had never been paid. if you think about it, it doesn't make that much sense.

and i never bagged on brannon or his job either.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby Welly » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:35 am

Well that's the impression you give.

Lookout never paid Green Day, I don't see why it's such a great leap to swallow that other indie labels didn't pay bands.

The psychology of a band signing to a 'bigger' indie when they start out is usually; "well, we've heard the rumours, but we love all their classic releases, and besides what other offer is a little band like us ever going to get?"

Then they sign for three albums.

If the band get a name for themselves, and major interest, they sometimes move on up the greasy pole, leaving the indie to pick up nice sales of the back catalogue, which then allows label to continue, experiment and, as is usually the case, squander this new found wealth. If they don't, the band disappears, and that's the end of that.

What a lot of bigger independents do is, rather than pay bands 'mechanical' royalties (a set rate for each unit sold), they opt to go for the more 'DIY' 50/50 profit split after break even on the band's project. The trick here is to ensure that the project never 'breaks even'. This is a simple process of billing the band for everything they can possibly think of, including things they 'loaned' the band, merch for tour, other tour support, and things the band supplied that didn't need anything changing, but were, like artwork. This can easily rack up tens of thousands of 'debt' to the label. The label then, regardless of band, ceases to supply the contractually promised accounts on an annual or twice annual basis.

Years later you may see a lawsuit or demand to see books, but it's usually only when the band is in the position to hire forensic accountants and go through the legal route. A lot of the time, this means negative publicity for the band, it's also only if the band is in a position to afford it. This is probably why it rarely happens, as well as bands having a habit of splitting up, so there being no functioning unit of people to care enough to challenge the label, as the band signed as individuals. If the band is in a different country to the label, this makes it even more difficult.

I would say though that the era and music you're talking about, there really was a different way of looking at things, different motivation. It wasn't like it is now. And that's why a lot of people got ripped off. And most of the time, they just let it slide.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby xxxHunterxxx » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:37 am

Welly wrote:
It's a choice you make. You either go the bring home the bacon/poles in the hole route, or you join a band and go on tour, there's no middle ground unless you sign some deal, in which case all you'll get is an advance, and the label will never pay you, indie or major. It's the story of rock'n'roll.

[/quote]

And even if you're on a label that does pay you, it's a tough way to make a living. My friend was in a band that grossed over a million bucks one year in the mid-90s. They were on the road for something like 260 days. By the time the manager, lawyer, booking agent, etc. took their cut, each member of the band got about $30k. It's decent money and beats working in an office unless you have a family, in which case, it would be hard to justify that much time away.

Out of NA's $7k guarantee, Brannon probably gets $1,000 at most. There was a great article about him in the Metro Times back in 2010. The guy's broke but seems happy.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:53 am

Welly wrote:Well that's the impression you give.

Lookout never paid Green Day, I don't see why it's such a great leap to swallow that other indie labels didn't pay bands.

The psychology of a band signing to a 'bigger' indie when they start out is usually; "well, we've heard the rumours, but we love all their classic releases, and besides what other offer is a little band like us ever going to get?"

Then they sign for three albums.

If the band get a name for themselves, and major interest, they sometimes move on up the greasy pole, leaving the indie to pick up nice sales of the back catalogue, which then allows label to continue, experiment and, as is usually the case, squander this new found wealth. If they don't, the band disappears, and that's the end of that.

What a lot of bigger independents do is, rather than pay bands 'mechanical' royalties (a set rate for each unit sold), they opt to go for the more 'DIY' 50/50 profit split after break even on the band's project. The trick here is to ensure that the project never 'breaks even'. This is a simple process of billing the band for everything they can possibly think of, including things they 'loaned' the band, merch for tour, other tour support, and things the band supplied that didn't need anything changing, but were, like artwork. This can easily rack up tens of thousands of 'debt' to the label. The label then, regardless of band, ceases to supply the contractually promised accounts on an annual or twice annual basis.

Years later you may see a lawsuit or demand to see books, but it's usually only when the band is in the position to hire forensic accountants and go through the legal route. A lot of the time, this means negative publicity for the band, it's also only if the band is in a position to afford it. This is probably why it rarely happens, as well as bands having a habit of splitting up, so there being no functioning unit of people to care enough to challenge the label, as the band signed as individuals. If the band is in a different country to the label, this makes it even more difficult.

I would say though that the era and music you're talking about, there really was a different way of looking at things, different motivation. It wasn't like it is now. And that's why a lot of people got ripped off. And most of the time, they just let it slide.



i am not looking to give an impression either way. it was a statement on a message board and i gave my two cents. i am sure both labels have ripped tons of people off, but i am arguing that somewhere down the line ginn must have been giving something back. at least to people in his inner cirle. like, if mike watt and hurley never got any type of compensation back for the minutemen, they would have been pretty moronic to go straight back to sst. the minutemen were poised for huge thins when d boon died, and i am sure firehose could have signed to any numbers of labels back then.

i also know first hand how labels work, i "interned" at revelation and century media and saw and learned way more then i ever wanted to about how labels operate. if you sell records, a label will pay attention to you. if not, you are pretty fucked.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:57 am

xxxHunterxxx wrote:
Welly wrote:
It's a choice you make. You either go the bring home the bacon/poles in the hole route, or you join a band and go on tour, there's no middle ground unless you sign some deal, in which case all you'll get is an advance, and the label will never pay you, indie or major. It's the story of rock'n'roll.



And even if you're on a label that does pay you, it's a tough way to make a living. My friend was in a band that grossed over a million bucks one year in the mid-90s. They were on the road for something like 260 days. By the time the manager, lawyer, booking agent, etc. took their cut, each member of the band got about $30k. It's decent money and beats working in an office unless you have a family, in which case, it would be hard to justify that much time away.

Out of NA's $7k guarantee, Brannon probably gets $1,000 at most. There was a great article about him in the Metro Times back in 2010. The guy's broke but seems happy.[/quote]

i read that article, it was really good. i am guessing he makes more than 1000 a show. anyway, multiply that by the couple hundred or so shows they have done in the past 4 years and i bet he is doing okay for himself. i know they make exceptions for their guarantee for certain shows, like they played al's bar in long beach last summer with DYS and the door was 15 bucks and a few other bands played. they only charged 10 bucks for shirts and lps, and i am glad brannon is finally seeing some money for all his years of being in bands.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby Welly » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:13 pm

xxxHunterxxx wrote:And even if you're on a label that does pay you, it's a tough way to make a living. My friend was in a band that grossed over a million bucks one year in the mid-90s. They were on the road for something like 260 days. By the time the manager, lawyer, booking agent, etc. took their cut, each member of the band got about $30k. It's decent money and beats working in an office unless you have a family, in which case, it would be hard to justify that much time away.

Out of NA's $7k guarantee, Brannon probably gets $1,000 at most. There was a great article about him in the Metro Times back in 2010. The guy's broke but seems happy.


Yeah. And you have to tour up to 300 days a year, therefore that becomes your life.

There's also a point that people miss when criticising reformed bands. It often takes 25-30 years to get the kind of name for a band that enough people actually give a shit. It must be easy now for kids to sit there with all this attention lavished on hardcore punk bands and the like in books, documentaries and on the internet, to think that it was always this way. No-one cared about a lot of these bands until at least the late 80's, and even then for most of them it was more like post 2000. It's only now that they can go out and tour or play gigs and actually get paid, or actually get paid for a record, or most other stuff.
Last edited by Welly on Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby Welly » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:15 pm

yourenotevil wrote:it was a statement on a message board and i gave my two cents.


You always do this. Bang on and on and on and on, and then back peddle.

You ever been in a band?
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:26 pm

Welly wrote:
yourenotevil wrote:it was a statement on a message board and i gave my two cents.


You always do this. Bang on and on and on and on, and then back peddle.

You ever been in a band?



seems like you are doing more of the banging here. what am i back peddling from? i think it is highly unlikely guys like watt(who seems smart) would stick with the same label for 13 plus fucking years if he never got any kind of compensation back from them. maybe they paid for the lps and all of the recordings, or he got it out of them in shirts and merch to sell or money for a tour, but i think it is highly dubious to think that SST never cut him a check for something. i don't see it being so implausible that ginn was not such a miser until the late 80s. am i defending him as a great guy? hell no, but chuck was heavily involved in that label until 1990 or so. i doubt he would have turned a blind eye to bands being ripped off right and left.

i think curtis was prolly smart enough to throw some money to choke, al and jerry a (or product) when it suited his needs. do i think he paid them everything he owed them? of course not, but it is easier to keep the "bigger" guys fed and rip off the smaller bands at the same time. like, i know he never paid anyone on the 89-92 boston comp. one of the bands said they got like 10 copies of the record and that was it.

these are just my theories, but i don't think they are so implausible. you can either agree or disagree.


and no, i have never been in a band, but i have friends who do, and friends who put on shows. i know it is tough and very few bands make it solely on their music. i think it was 95 or so before SOIA could even quit their day jobs.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby Welly » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:31 pm

yourenotevil wrote:
Welly wrote:
yourenotevil wrote:it was a statement on a message board and i gave my two cents.


You always do this. Bang on and on and on and on, and then back peddle.

You ever been in a band?


seems like you are doing more of the banging here.


I'll shut up then, I just decided to bite as every now and then I come on here and get sick of reading the ill informed kneejerk dogshit you write.

About something your 'friend' did.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby xxxHunterxxx » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:33 pm

Welly wrote:
xxxHunterxxx wrote:And even if you're on a label that does pay you, it's a tough way to make a living. My friend was in a band that grossed over a million bucks one year in the mid-90s. They were on the road for something like 260 days. By the time the manager, lawyer, booking agent, etc. took their cut, each member of the band got about $30k. It's decent money and beats working in an office unless you have a family, in which case, it would be hard to justify that much time away.
Out of NA's $7k guarantee, Brannon probably gets $1,000 at most. There was a great article about him in the Metro Times back in 2010. The guy's broke but seems happy.


Yeah. And you have to tour up to 300 days a year, therefore that becomes your life.

There's also a point that people miss when criticising reformed bands. It often takes 25-30 years to get the kind of name for a band that enough people actually give a shit. It must be easy now for kids to sit there with all this attention lavished on hardcore punk bands and the like in books, documentaries and on the internet, to think that it was always this way. No-one cared about a lot of these bands until at least the late 80's, and even then for most of them it was more like post 2000. It's only now that they can go out and tour or play gigs and actually get paid, or actually get paid for a record, or most other stuff.


I just finished reading the We Got Power! book, which rules. It makes clear that, on any night of the week in SoCal in the early 80s, you could go see multiple now-legendary punk bands playing various local venues. They were frequently playing to 30 people.
World’s biggest Snakes fan.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:42 pm

Welly wrote:
yourenotevil wrote:
Welly wrote:
yourenotevil wrote:it was a statement on a message board and i gave my two cents.


You always do this. Bang on and on and on and on, and then back peddle.

You ever been in a band?


seems like you are doing more of the banging here.


I'll shut up then, I just decided to bite as every now and then I come on here and get sick of reading the ill informed kneejerk dogshit you write.

About something your 'friend' did.



you can shut up or you can keep arguing, just don't be an asshole about it(like you usually are and were in that comment) and i will have no problems either way. and how is what i am writing "ill informed" if i am saying it is a fucking theory? we're both stubborn and i'll admit to that, but just because you are old doesn't mean you fucking know everything under the sun either(as you often like to proclaim). and you always bring this shit up about my "friends" with such disdain. why? what do you care? i don't do a zine or label like you, but that doesn't stop me from being able to understand what is going on or what has gone on in hardcore. sometimes you are really arrogant. and, like i have said before, if you don't like my posts, just don't respond to them. we had some beef on the old board, and i can't remember about what. you have been civil and fine in my book since then and i would rather keep it that way.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby tad ghostal » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:13 pm

yourenotevil wrote:i am not looking to give an impression either way. it was a statement on a message board and i gave my two cents. i am sure both labels have ripped tons of people off, but i am arguing that somewhere down the line ginn must have been giving something back. at least to people in his inner cirle. like, if mike watt and hurley never got any type of compensation back for the minutemen, they would have been pretty moronic to go straight back to sst. the minutemen were poised for huge thins when d boon died, and i am sure firehose could have signed to any numbers of labels back then.

i also know first hand how labels work, i "interned" at revelation and century media and saw and learned way more then i ever wanted to about how labels operate. if you sell records, a label will pay attention to you. if not, you are pretty fucked.


Honestly, I've heard that the Minutemen didn't sell enough during their lifetime that they would have made much in royalties so they were content to let the label keep the money to stay afloat. They made more on tour and the records were an excuse to tour. Plus, at that time, Greg and SST were friends and I suppose some of the those bands were fine with helping out their friends' label stay on its feet. Like with Welly's example about Green Day, that band considered Lookout to be friends and therefore didn't make a move regarding royalties until the amount owed was in the millions of dollars.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby Pffft » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:54 am

Yourenotevil really is pretty evil.


Gives me a headache.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby JGJR » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:40 pm

Pffft wrote:Yourenotevil really is pretty evil.


Gives me a headache.


No he's not (just stubborn kinda like I can be). He makes some good points (as does Welly) here!
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby xxxMidgexxx » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:58 pm

Every time I saw Black Flag in the 80's, the shows were large and packed. Profit was most certainly made.

Ginn pissed it away on releasing a ton of shitty records that no one bought.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby obik » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:07 pm

yourenotevil wrote:
Welly wrote:
yourenotevil wrote:
Welly wrote:
yourenotevil wrote:it was a statement on a message board and i gave my two cents.


You always do this. Bang on and on and on and on, and then back peddle.

You ever been in a band?


seems like you are doing more of the banging here.


I'll shut up then, I just decided to bite as every now and then I come on here and get sick of reading the ill informed kneejerk dogshit you write.

About something your 'friend' did.



you can shut up or you can keep arguing, just don't be an asshole about it(like you usually are and were in that comment) and i will have no problems either way. and how is what i am writing "ill informed" if i am saying it is a fucking theory? we're both stubborn and i'll admit to that, but just because you are old doesn't mean you fucking know everything under the sun either(as you often like to proclaim). and you always bring this shit up about my "friends" with such disdain. why? what do you care? i don't do a zine or label like you, but that doesn't stop me from being able to understand what is going on or what has gone on in hardcore. sometimes you are really arrogant. and, like i have said before, if you don't like my posts, just don't respond to them. we had some beef on the old board, and i can't remember about what. you have been civil and fine in my book since then and i would rather keep it that way.



You know how this should be settled?

Kissing contest.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby JGJR » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:17 pm

obik wrote:Kissing contest.


What's wrong with an old fashioned rub and tug? :D
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby obik » Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:40 pm

JGJR wrote:
obik wrote:Kissing contest.


What's wrong with an old fashioned rub and tug? :D


I'm not cleaning up the mess.

Again.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby JGJR » Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:43 pm

obik wrote:
JGJR wrote:
obik wrote:Kissing contest.


What's wrong with an old fashioned rub and tug? :D


I'm not cleaning up the mess.

Again.


Who said you were invited?

Stalking laws exist for a reason. Don't make the same mistake twice. :lol:
xxxMidgexxx wrote:But perhaps I just love drone stuff in general.
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby obik » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:04 pm

JGJR wrote:
obik wrote:
JGJR wrote:
obik wrote:Kissing contest.


What's wrong with an old fashioned rub and tug? :D


I'm not cleaning up the mess.

Again.


Who said you were invited?


How am I supposed to judge if I'm not there?
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby john stabb » Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:00 am

Punk Bands who made/didn't make money in the 80's will always be a heated discussion. I'll tell you what happened to G.I. & why none of us made enough cash at gigs at our peak of popularity in '88 after 2 months of our N. American tour to barely pay for our individual laundry, a bit of detergent, maybe a few toiletries, and a snack. We were in the middle of Texas, carrying half of a sound company's P.A. in a U-Haul, still waiting for more t-shirts to be forwarded through the mail, paying our driver/soundman/roadie and we're each given $100. Where did all the money go? Well, we had to send home a chunk to pay our band phone bill, pay for shirts, the rental of all that gear, U-Haul, gas for the Van. And our driver/soundman got paid. We were getting the best f'n press we'd ever gotten but good reviews don't pay the rent. Never will for anyone.

Oh, did I neglect to say that 50% of the club-owners cheated us to our faces :?: And that's what most bands went through in the 80's. It sucked to hope that finally this might be the record that breaks things wide open. Tom & I put too much focus on that shit and made us really crazy.

And let's chat about the label-deal. G.I. would get an advance on the next record sales for say 5 thousand but we sunk every penny of that into the studio recording because we wanted to crank out the best possible piece o' vinyl we could. It was only after we left our label that they legally had the right to still sell our entire catalog of work but not have to pay us a dime. At least for 5 years straight because that's the standard contract we signed. By the time it was 10 years after the contract expired, the label was cheating us big time. :x How come the members of G.I. never received a royalty check? :shock: People told Tom & I to hire a lawyer and sue their ass. We blew it off thinking we'd just be dealing with them dragging our butts through court system and the label having the money to do that. We sure didn't while concentrating on our next band and working enough to pay our bills. Some more years passed and finally Tom decided "Well, this is obviously bullshit so let's put out our catalog with another label". He almost chose Reptilian in B'more but thought Dr. Strange was giving us a better deal. That's when DS owner, Bill, contacted our old label to ask "If I release the G.I. stuff on my label, would you have a problem with that?". Their weasel answer was "Yes, we'll sue you". Bill didn't want to deal with lawsuits so told us he wasn't releasing us. Tom got his L.A. Lawyer brother in the family (everyone should have one ;) ) & he told the label "Put up or shut up". They caved (and even though they firmly stated they would still sell the G.I. they had) and we now have our own hard work to put out wherever we please. DS treats us like Kings but we've had a lot of difficulty with all the distributors that have just gone away so there's is a big chunk of dough that the label needs to recoup before we see another royalty payment. But we trust them throughout this "demise of distributors" situation and are willing to stay with them to show our loyalty.

If NA are making enough to pay their f'n rent: MORE POWER TO THEM :!:

Now, if any of you skinheads wanna kiss me ... :D
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Re: Musings on Black Flag

Postby JGJR » Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:57 am

obik wrote:
JGJR wrote:
obik wrote:
JGJR wrote:
obik wrote:Kissing contest.


What's wrong with an old fashioned rub and tug? :D


I'm not cleaning up the mess.

Again.


Who said you were invited?


How am I supposed to judge if I'm not there?


Well there is Skype. :-)
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