DC or NYC hardcore '85-'90

[clash77]

Good vs bad..You make the call.My position is on record..Thoughts??

[version sound]

DC. Duh. Some of the best punk/hardcore ever fucking made. NYHC was already done by 1985. Confirmed New Yorker Midge F. Lightweight agrees with me, so that's pretty definitive.

[clash77]

DC. Duh. Some of the best punk/hardcore ever fucking made. NYHC was already done by 1985. Confirmed New Yorker Midge F. Lightweight agrees with me, so that's pretty definitive.

Ha Vs..I like your optimism!

[gregpolard]

Waiting for yourenotevil and mxv to argue about the Cro Mags.....

[version sound]

I like the Cro Mags, but classic NYHC pretty much ended with Victim in Pain, IMO. I do LOVE that first Crumbsuckers record, though.

[Chris Shary]

DC.

[clash77]

I like the Cro Mags, but classic NYHC pretty much ended with Victim in Pain, IMO. I do L)OVE that first Crumbsuckers record, though.

LOD was a great record, the follow up..yikes!!..The Krackdown( or Krakdown) stuff( Notaro) good also..One more LI band Ludachrist, also worth mentioning..

[clash77]

DC.

Really??..What band from this time interests you??.We all know one!..ha, but?????

[The Snake]

NYC totally!
DC had lots of great post hc/punk bands, but the hardcore was in NYC at the time.
I love Embrace, Ignition and few others but Beefeater and such, c´mon!
Straight Ahead alone is better then most of the DC stuff from 85 - 90.

[version sound]

NYC totally!
DC had lots of great post hc/punk bands, but the hardcore was in NYC at the time.
I love Embrace, Ignition and few others but Beefeater and such, c´mon!
Straight Ahead alone is better then most of the DC stuff from 85 - 90.

Dag Nasty
Rites of Spring
One Last Wish
Embrace
Nation of Ulysses
Shudder to Think
Gray Matter
Scream
Swiz
Ignition
Beefeater
Soul Side
Mission Impossible
United Mutations
Black Market Baby
3
Rain
Marginal Man
Crippled Pilgrims
King Face
Fugazi

[Chris Shary]

Dag Nasty
GI
RoS
Embrace
Gray Matter
Scream
Swiz
Shutter to Think
Soul Side
3
King Face
Fugazi
Foundation
Beefeater
Ignition
Rain
One Last Wish
Happy Go Licky
Fire Party (honestly, I loved them live)
Egg Hunt
Jawbox

I'm sure I'm forgetting some. I truly adore all these bands. DC had a BIG influence on me during these years.

[version sound]

Shit, how did I forget GI? Let's hope John doesn't notice.

Food for thought: Arguably, the godfathers of NYHC were BAD BRAINS, who just happened to be from DC.

[yourenotevil]

they are both good, but there is no point in comparing them. DC was hardcore in spirit but had clearly moved on to something else musically by then, unless you are going to throw in immortal discipline or the two other dc bands playing traditional hardcore at that point.

[patient_ot]

If you take out the Youth Crew type stuff (which some might argue isn't really NYHC) you end up with a bunch of bands that only recorded demos or maybe one 7'', aside from the obvious big name bands. A lot of the "big name" stuff hasn't been kept in print or been properly preserved either. Aside from the music (which is down to personal taste), I think has hurt NYC's legacy more than anything else. IMHO, it is pretty screwed up that you can't go into a store or online distro and buy a legit, in-print copy of Age of Quarrel or Don't Forget the Struggle right now...

[gregpolard]

I like the Cro Mags, but classic NYHC pretty much ended with Victim in Pain, IMO. I do L)OVE that first Crumbsuckers record, though.

LOD was a great record, the follow up..yikes!!..The Krackdown( or Krakdown) stuff( Notaro) good also..One more LI band Ludachrist, also worth mentioning..

I know people on here want to deny it, but AOQ is a flawless LP. Best Wishes is ok but it's a metal record. After that, aside from the occasional riff or two, I don't care.

NYHC band I love is Sheer Terror.

[The Snake]

I don´t think that clash77 meant post hardcore when he opened this thread, but maybe I´ wrong.
DC bands mentioned here are great bands (well, some more, some less), but saying that Beefeater or Shudder To Think are better hardcore bands than Straight Ahead is just plain silly.
You could say that you like James Brown more than some hardcore bands, but that still doesn´t make James Brown hardcore.

[The Snake]

Oops wrong thread!

[drew]

As a New Yorker who's HC heyday was 86-90 I have to say DC. I love my NYHC but most bands were gone or went to shit real quick and left no legacy behind. And, like someone here said, there is so much NYHC out of print, literally dozens of great records. It's pretty sad.

[version sound]

I don´t think that clash77 meant post hardcore when he opened this thread, but maybe I´ wrong.
DC bands mentioned here are great bands (well, some more, some less), but saying that Beefeater or Shudder To Think are better hardcore bands than Straight Ahead is just plain silly.
You could say that you like James Brown more than some hardcore bands, but that still doesn´t make James Brown hardcore.

In 1985-1990, there was no such genre as "post-hardcore". If you want to get picky about it, a lot of NYHC was more metalcore or crossover than straight HC. Based on previous posts, I think C77 most definitely meant to include all those bands.

[The Snake]

I don´t think that clash77 meant post hardcore when he opened this thread, but maybe I´ wrong.
DC bands mentioned here are great bands (well, some more, some less), but saying that Beefeater or Shudder To Think are better hardcore bands than Straight Ahead is just plain silly.
You could say that you like James Brown more than some hardcore bands, but that still doesn´t make James Brown hardcore.

In 1985-1990, there was no such genre as "post-hardcore". If you want to get picky about it, a lot of NYHC was more metalcore or crossover than straight HC. Based on previous posts, I think C77 most definitely meant to include all those bands.

Well, when I talk about NYC hardcore from 85-90 I don´t mean crossover bands.
YOT, Straight Ahead, Crippled Youth/Bold, Project X, Judge, Gorilla Biscuits, Side By Side, Life´s Blood, Citizens Arrest... All hardcore.

[version sound]

I know people on here want to deny it, but AOQ is a flawless LP. Best Wishes is ok but it's a metal record. After that, aside from the occasional riff or two, I don't care.

Good? Sure. Flawless? Hardly. I've grown to really like it over the years, but found it very meh when it first came out.

[version sound]

Well, when I talk about NYC hardcore from 85-90 I don´t mean crossover bands.
YOT, Straight Ahead, Crippled Youth/Bold, Project X, Judge, Gorilla Biscuits, Side By Side, Life´s Blood, Citizens Arrest... All hardcore.

So, Agnostic Front post-VIP, Crumbsuckers, Cro Mags, etc... weren't NYHC? I think that's really splitting hairs.

Likewise, no one called anything "post-hardcore" in the '80s. That's pure historical revision. At most, those bands were considered "emotional hardcore", a tag they all rejected. I think those of us buying the records considered it all hardcore. I know I did.

[JGJR]

DC and I say that as someone who likes the NYC stuff from that era (well some of it) a great deal more than most on here.

Dag Nasty
Fugazi
GI
Rites of Spring
Embrace
Shudder to Think
Jawbox
Soulside
Ignition
Scream
Gray Matter

Some of my favorite music ever. I rest my case. I also agree with drew and patient ot's comments and love Sheer Terror as well like Greg.

[The Snake]

Well, when I talk about NYC hardcore from 85-90 I don´t mean crossover bands.
YOT, Straight Ahead, Crippled Youth/Bold, Project X, Judge, Gorilla Biscuits, Side By Side, Life´s Blood, Citizens Arrest... All hardcore.

So, Agnostic Front post-VIP, Crumbsuckers, Cro Mags, etc... weren't NYHC? I think that's really splitting hairs.

Likewise, no one called anything "post-hardcore" in the '80s. That's pure historical revision. At most, those bands were considered "emotional hardcore", a tag they all rejected. I think those of us buying the records considered it all hardcore. I know I did.

Well, you can say that the bands you mentioned were crossover.
But there were still enough of good hardcore bands in NYC.
That was my point.

[Welly]

DC and NY 'hardcore' were both completely different beasts by 1985-90 so it's all a bit pointless arguing about it.

[matt]

WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON?!?

[Welly]

WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON?!?

Music.

[matt]

WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON?!?

Music.

Sell out.

[Chris Shary]

Funny how opinions typically lead to arguments. I'm not out to change anyone's mind about any form of music. I'm just a fan.

[xxxMidgexxx]

New York hardcore was over before it began.

Actually there are some terrific bands, but DC and Boston ruled.

[matt]

Funny how opinions typically lead to arguments. I'm not out to change anyone's mind about any form of music. I'm just a fan.

Why are you always trying to pick fights, Chris???

[Stormy]

NYC totally!
DC had lots of great post hc/punk bands, but the hardcore was in NYC at the time.
I love Embrace, Ignition and few others but Beefeater and such, c´mon!
Straight Ahead alone is better then most of the DC stuff from 85 - 90.

Dag Nasty
Rites of Spring
One Last Wish
Embrace
Nation of Ulysses
Shudder to Think
Gray Matter
Scream
Swiz
Ignition
Beefeater
Soul Side
Mission Impossible
United Mutations
Black Market Baby
3
Rain
Marginal Man
Crippled Pilgrims
King Face
Fugazi

IMO, the 2 best bands on that list are pre-'85? Black Market Baby and United Mutation. And the first Rites of Spring LP barely makes it. I'll always go with NY. Over by '85?? NYHC didn't blow up UNTIL 1985!

Mostly copy/pasted from the Born Against thread, so i don't have to type it again:
Breakdown '87 demo
first Burn 7"
Absolution demo
Collapse ep and live sets
Life's Blood (ep, comp tracks and WFMU)
Krakdown '87 demo
Warzone "Street Kids" demo,
Cro Mags demo
NYC Mayhem ep and demos
all Straight Ahead,
Leeway
Token Entry
Damage
Citizens Arrest 7"
Born Against 7"
Altercation '87 demo!!!
Death Before Dishonor (pre-Supertouch)
Supertouch
Raw Deal demos
Krieg Kopf
Nausea
Crumbsuckers
early Prong
Our Gang
NY Hoods
Madball - Ball of Destruction
Stillborn demos!
Nihilistics
Agnostic Front - And Justice LP (fucking classic)
Beyond demo and LP
Outburst demo
SFA - early demos with Mike BS (GO!) on vox
Underdog demos
Gorilla Biscuits demo and ep (LP was OK)
SOIA - demos, ep and first LP
Ludichrist demos
Ultraviolence
Judge demo and first ep
there's more

[version sound]

That's a big old pile of meh.

[Stormy]

That's a big old pile of meh.

well, i grew up with it. seeing the bands, buying the demos as they came out. it was my intro to HC
just because you're like 100 years old, no need to knock anything that isn't Victim in Pain

[yourenotevil]

That's a big old pile of meh.

well, i grew up with it. seeing the bands, buying the demos as they came out. it was my intro to HC
just because you're like 100 years old, no need to knock anything that isn't Victim in Pain

ha, i think you dudes are actually the same age. i agree, just because this board checked out of hardcore in 85 or so doesn't make NYHC any less worthy of the praise it gets.

[lewdd]

In 1985 they were both shit. Mystic Records was putting out better stuff than either at that time.

[version sound]

That's a big old pile of meh.

well, i grew up with it. seeing the bands, buying the demos as they came out. it was my intro to HC
just because you're like 100 years old, no need to knock anything that isn't Victim in Pain

ha, i think you dudes are actually the same age. i agree, just because this board checked out of hardcore in 85 or so doesn't make NYHC any less worthy of the praise it gets.

Not completely true, but I did check out of '82 style hardcore by 1985. There was way more interesting stuff to listen to that wasn't stuck 3 years in the past. In the end, it's all a matter of opinion anyway, so bickering about it is pretty pointless.

[yourenotevil]

That's a big old pile of meh.

well, i grew up with it. seeing the bands, buying the demos as they came out. it was my intro to HC
just because you're like 100 years old, no need to knock anything that isn't Victim in Pain

ha, i think you dudes are actually the same age. i agree, just because this board checked out of hardcore in 85 or so doesn't make NYHC any less worthy of the praise it gets.

Not completely true, but I did check out of '82 style hardcore by 1985. There was way more interesting stuff to listen to that wasn't stuck 3 years in the past. In the end, it's all a matter of opinion anyway, so bickering about it is pretty pointless.

we've been wasting a lot of time on here then!

[john stabb]

version sound wrote-

Dag Nasty
Rites of Spring
One Last Wish
Embrace
Nation of Ulysses
Shudder to Think
Gray Matter
Scream
Swiz
Ignition
Beefeater
Soul Side
Mission Impossible
United Mutations
Black Market Baby
3
Rain
Marginal Man
Crippled Pilgrims
King Face
Fugazi

I'm almost with you there but United Mutations were pretty psychedelic noisestuff, BMB were always a Punk band, Crippled Pilgrims were very Paisley Underground like Dream Syndicate, and Kingface are a Rock band with Punk influences. Sure I'm being picky but not hardcore. But what about that little band called G.I.

To even remotely think NY wins this is absurd.

[john stabb]

ooops, just noticed, vs.

[Stormy]

version sound wrote-

Dag Nasty
Rites of Spring
One Last Wish
Embrace
Nation of Ulysses
Shudder to Think
Gray Matter
Scream
Swiz
Ignition
Beefeater
Soul Side
Mission Impossible
United Mutations
Black Market Baby
3
Rain
Marginal Man
Crippled Pilgrims
King Face
Fugazi

I'm almost with you there but United Mutations were pretty psychedelic noisestuff, BMB were always a Punk band, Crippled Pilgrims were very Paisley Underground like Dream Syndicate, and Kingface are a Rock band with Punk influences. Sure I'm being picky but not hardcore. But what about that little band called G.I.

To even remotely think NY wins this is absurd.

It's called opinions.
The thread said "hardcore", so i rattled off a list of NY hardcore, not a list of emo, post-HC, rock, indie, whatever... i mean, Shudder to Think and Rain should be NOWHERE near a HC thread.
Anyway, i'll stick with my opinion, without calling anyone else's absurd.

[john stabb]

I understand opinions, Stormy. And perhaps you're right about Shudder but if you don't accept Rain as hardcore then you certainly wouldn't accept Rites of Spring because they are of the same cloth that people always call "emo". I hate that term because (as Ian once stated) "I think all music is emotional"

I will say I'm pretty bias against a bunch of NY hardcore because I just don't find bands like the following very interesting.

Warzone "Street Kids" demo,
Crumbsuckers
Madball - Ball of Destruction
Agnostic Front - And Justice LP (fucking classic)
Underdog demos
Gorilla Biscuits demo and ep (LP was OK)
SOIA - demos, ep and first LP
Cro-Mags - Age of Quarrel LP

Some of the others I've never heard so I can't form an opinion on. I liked Token Entry when G.I. played with them.

[version sound]

It's called opinions.
The thread said "hardcore", so i rattled off a list of NY hardcore, not a list of emo, post-HC, rock, indie, whatever... i mean, Shudder to Think and Rain should be NOWHERE near a HC thread.
Anyway, i'll stick with my opinion, without calling anyone else's absurd.

No offense, but this is complete bullshit. Your mind has been poisoned by genrefication. Show me a reference to there being such a thing as "post-hardcore" that comes from before 1990. You do highlight why DC was always better than NYC though, and that's diversity. People were actually doing something new, instead of rehashing the same old shit with a stupid tough guy veneer. Maybe the Cro Mags were "from the streets", but I'm not, and I bet you aren't either, so why wallow in that shit? It meant nothing to me and said nothing to me.

[version sound]

Why the fuck is this board alerting me to new posts that are the fucking post I'm posting...post? MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTT!!!!!!!!

[The Snake]

I´m with Stormy on this one.

Maybe the term post hardcore was´t in the use in 80´s but Jawbox for example is not hardcore (and they are more the 90´s band after all). I´m a Jawbox fan but would never call it a hardcore band. I don´t think they (or some other mentioned bands in the thread) ever considered themselves as hardcore bands.

Battery from DC started in the end of 80´s, well, that´s a good DC hardcore.

[Welly]

I´m with Stormy on this one.

Maybe the term post hardcore was´t in the use in 80´s but Jawbox for example is not hardcore (and they are more the 90´s band after all). I´m a Jawbox fan but would never call it a hardcore band. I don´t think they (or some other mentioned bands in the thread) ever considered themselves as hardcore bands.

Everything being put in sub-sub-sub-sub-boxes is a relatively recent thing though.

[The Snake]

I´m with Stormy on this one.

Maybe the term post hardcore was´t in the use in 80´s but Jawbox for example is not hardcore (and they are more the 90´s band after all). I´m a Jawbox fan but would never call it a hardcore band. I don´t think they (or some other mentioned bands in the thread) ever considered themselves as hardcore bands.

Everything being put in sub-sub-sub-sub-boxes is a relatively recent thing though.

Yeah, I get that, but sometimes labels are necessary.
For example, if I listen some power pop bands, I won´t call them hardcore because they are power pop, it is simple as that.

[Welly]

[=
Yeah, I get that, but sometimes labels are necessary.
For example, if I listen some power pop bands, I won´t call them hardcore because they are power pop, it is simple as that.

Really? When I listen to mod music, I always call it hip hop.

Present day 'label' overkill is not really necessary though, that's the point. It's just a symptom of a lot of people these days not having a hope of grasping the histories and discographies of vast music styles and scenes, so carving out smaller niches they can be experts on.

That's pretty much it though right? Everyone's an 'expert' on something now. Bit like how everyone's a fucking 'artiste' as well.

Right, better get back to my 'post-hardcore' photography project that I'm bespoke printing onto old driftwood. Keep an eye out for the exhibition and book tour.

[version sound]

Present day 'label' overkill is not really necessary though, that's the point. It's just a symptom of a lot of people these days not having a hope of grasping the histories and discographies of vast music styles and scenes, so carving out smaller niches they can be experts on.

That's pretty much it though right? Everyone's an 'expert' on something now. Bit like how everyone's a fucking 'artiste' as well.

Right, better get back to my 'post-hardcore' photography project that I'm bespoke printing onto old driftwood. Keep an eye out for the exhibition and book tour.

Nailed it.

All those bands were part of the punk/hardcore scene. Good enough for me.

[The Snake]

Well, it´s all punk in the end!

But, what about DC vs DC?
I still think that Battery is better hardcore than Beefeater.