Born Against

[Welly]

Just spinning some of their stuff.

Thoughts?

Are you a good team player?

[lewdd]

Rise Against > Born Against

[The Snake]

Love ´em! And stuff they wrote and interviews with BA were always great!

[BAIN]

Easily in my top 10

song that started it all for me = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2JRJQaz9tI

[xxxMidgexxx]

I saw them quite a few times and they were good. But nowhere NEAR as blessed as everyone makes them out to be. Sam's writing is certainly amazing and funny as all hell. Live though, they were good. Not incredible.

[the mean]

Rise Against > Born Against

Going to assume this is a joke.

Born Against were an amazing band. "Mary and Child" is such a good song (especially the original version.) I thought they were great live as well.

[77clash]

Rise Against > Born Against

Going to assume this is a joke.

Born Against were an amazing band. "Mary and Child" is such a good song (especially the original version.) I thought they were great live as well.

No joke.

[Gary]

Incredible band. Wish I'd had the chance to see them.

[JGJR]

Rise Against > Born Against

So wrong.

[JGJR]

Easily in my top 10

song that started it all for me = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2JRJQaz9tI

Great band, but they peaked early for sure. That 7" (the best) and "Eulogy" are their greatest moments along with some compilation tracks like the one on Murders Among Us. I like the Lp a lot, but not as much as the earlier stuff. I honestly thought "Lillian" (so disappointed with that turd at the time it was released) and most of the stuff on the 10" and 8" split with Man is the Bastard was absolute shit at the time, but now I view it as more of a piece with the Lp (or going in the same direction). I still don't like most of the later stuff, though. They lost a lot of us with that stuff.

I never got to see them. They played Cook College and maybe Middlesex in '91, but I couldn't get a ride. I was 16 and didn't have my license yet.

[JGJR]

Rise Against > Born Against

So wrong.

And you think I don't like punk rock? Ladies and gentlemen, the evidence is at hand here.

[JGJR]

Love ´em! And stuff they wrote and interviews with BA were always great!

I only remember the epic one in No Answers #8.

[77clash]

Rise Against > Born Against

So wrong.

And you think I don't like punk rock? Ladies and gentlemen, the evidence is at hand here.

Shoot me for liking early Fat, Hellcat, and Epitaph stuff.

[The Snake]

Love ´em! And stuff they wrote and interviews with BA were always great!

I only remember the epic one in No Answers #8.

I was thinking also about that interview, but it is in # 10 which was also last the No Answers issue.
I read some other BA interviews that were not epic as this, but still pretty good.

[obik]

Rise Against > Born Against

So wrong.

And you think I don't like punk rock? Ladies and gentlemen, the evidence is at hand here.

Shoot me for liking early terrible music.

[JGJR]

Love ´em! And stuff they wrote and interviews with BA were always great!

I only remember the epic one in No Answers #8.

I was thinking also about that interview, but it is in # 10 which was also last the No Answers issue.
I read some other BA interviews that were not epic as this, but still pretty good.

Yeah that one stands out and sorry I got the number wrong.

[JGJR]

Rise Against > Born Against

So wrong.

And you think I don't like punk rock? Ladies and gentlemen, the evidence is at hand here.

Shoot me for liking early Fat, Hellcat, and Epitaph stuff.

That stuff (by and large) just isn't my bag.

[77clash]

Rise Against > Born Against

So wrong.

And you think I don't like punk rock? Ladies and gentlemen, the evidence is at hand here.

Shoot me for liking early Fat, Hellcat, and Epitaph stuff.

That stuff (by and large) just isn't my bag.

You had a choice at that time to listen to tough guy straight edge hardcore or FHE. I picked the latter and have been happy since then. I brought me back to the old school punk that I listened to many years before.

[The Snake]

Love ´em! And stuff they wrote and interviews with BA were always great!

I only remember the epic one in No Answers #8.

I was thinking also about that interview, but it is in # 10 which was also last the No Answers issue.
I read some other BA interviews that were not epic as this, but still pretty good.

Yeah that one stands out and sorry I got the number wrong.

I wanted to re-print that interview in my zine in 2006. and asked Kent about it.
He said no, because not all issues of No Answers # 10 were sold out, that was his explanation, oh well...

[yourenotevil]

Easily in my top 10

song that started it all for me = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2JRJQaz9tI

Great band, but they peaked early for sure. That 7" (the best) and "Eulogy" are their greatest moments along with some compilation tracks like the one on Murders Among Us. I like the Lp a lot, but not as much as the earlier stuff. I honestly thought "Lillian" (so disappointed with that turd at the time it was released) and most of the stuff on the 10" and 8" split with Man is the Bastard was absolute shit at the time, but now I view it as more of a piece with the Lp (or going in the same direction). I still don't like most of the later stuff, though. They lost a lot of us with that stuff.

I never got to see them. They played Cook College and maybe Middlesex in '91, but I couldn't get a ride. I was 16 and didn't have my license yet.

yeah, when i was 14 this was my favorite band pretty much. i just missed them by a year or so i think as far as live shows went. early stuff is great, but the albums are definitely very dated. i don't get why sam is so embarrassed about BA and refuses to talk about them though.

[yourenotevil]

Love ´em! And stuff they wrote and interviews with BA were always great!

I only remember the epic one in No Answers #8.

I was thinking also about that interview, but it is in # 10 which was also last the No Answers issue.
I read some other BA interviews that were not epic as this, but still pretty good.

Yeah that one stands out and sorry I got the number wrong.

I wanted to re-print that interview in my zine in 2006. and asked Kent about it.
He said no, because not all issues of No Answers # 10 were sold out, that was his explanation, oh well...

he was also thinking about making a no answers book, but after kicking around the idea for like 10 years he has buried the project. i had a friend ask him. i think it is lame he said that, he has been sitting on no answers #10 forever and you need to do a minimum mail order of 100 dollars, so no wonder he still has a bunch of fucking copies left.

[xxxMidgexxx]

I will add this, though.

They were better than Gorilla Biscuits, Sick of it All and Youth of Today combined.

[yourenotevil]

I will add this, though.

They were better than Gorilla Biscuits, Sick of it All and Youth of Today combined.

there is so much fucking heresy in that statement.

[obik]

I will add this, though.

They were better than Gorilla Biscuits, Sick of it All and Youth of Today combined.

there is so much fucking heresy in that statement.

They were better than Heresy too.

[xxxMidgexxx]

Sorry but it's true. The weirdo freak show Born Against put on in the gravel and dust of ABC NO RIO was much more entertaining than a bunch of pre pubescent teens in hoodies with X'd wrists.

[yourenotevil]

Sorry but it's true. The weirdo freak show Born Against put on in the gravel and dust of ABC NO RIO was much more entertaining than a bunch of pre pubescent teens in hoodies with X'd wrists.

SOIA were never SXE though.

[patient_ot]

he was also thinking about making a no answers book, but after kicking around the idea for like 10 years he has buried the project. i had a friend ask him. i think it is lame he said that, he has been sitting on no answers #10 forever and you need to do a minimum mail order of 100 dollars, so no wonder he still has a bunch of fucking copies left.

Has anyone ordered from Ebullition since the 1990s? They kind of seemed to disappear, but I guess they are still active as a distro even if they aren't putting out new stuff. I just checked their website and it says the minimum order is $50. I can't imagine there is a lot of demand for a hc zine from 20 (?) years ago these days, not to mention a lot of the stuff in their distro.

[xxxMidgexxx]

After Agnostic Fronts first Lp, New York hardcore was mediocre.

[yourenotevil]

he was also thinking about making a no answers book, but after kicking around the idea for like 10 years he has buried the project. i had a friend ask him. i think it is lame he said that, he has been sitting on no answers #10 forever and you need to do a minimum mail order of 100 dollars, so no wonder he still has a bunch of fucking copies left.

Has anyone ordered from Ebullition since the 1990s? They kind of seemed to disappear, but I guess they are still active as a distro even if they aren't putting out new stuff. I just checked their website and it says the minimum order is $50. I can't imagine there is a lot of demand for a hc zine from 20 (?) years ago these days, not to mention a lot of the stuff in their distro.

i know it def used to be 100 bucks for a store or home order. it said just get your friends together and you can order something easily. yeah, right. i know that ebullition is def still up and running. it is just kent and one other person. he keeps afloat from what he sells through distro. i can't imagine anything from the actual label still sells except for los crudos and one or two random things. when revelation did the 25th anniversary in california, all of the old ebullition heads came except for kent. not sure if he goes to any shows at all anymore.

[patient_ot]

No, I believe you about the $100 thing. These days I think most people are inclined to buy things one at a time or in small batches. My friend that runs an online vinyl shop prices individual LPs with shipping included b/c many of his customers just order 1 LP at a time.

$50 is a lot more manageable, but the Ebullition site is so dated in terms of functionality that I think people are inclined to just buy elsewhere.

[dave123]

Rise Against > Born Against

So wrong.

And you think I don't like punk rock? Ladies and gentlemen, the evidence is at hand here.

Shoot me for liking early Fat, Hellcat, and Epitaph stuff.

That stuff (by and large) just isn't my bag.

You had a choice at that time to listen to tough guy straight edge hardcore or FHE. I picked the latter and have been happy since then. I brought me back to the old school punk that I listened to many years before.

Don't know when or where this rule was implemented.

[Gary]

Haha!!

[gregpolard]

I haven't listened to Born Against in years. But I'm with lewdd. Would rather listen to Against Me! also.

[The Snake]

Against Me can suck my fucking lizard with their corporate folk rock, ha ha!

[the mean]

You had a choice at that time to listen to tough guy straight edge hardcore or FHE.

Going to assume you are joking again. Such a stupid statement.

[the mean]

We've been over this stupid criticism about Ebullition before. They made the decision to be a distro selling to stores, and to get out of the mailorder business. However, if you want to place an order with the same minimum dollar amount as a store, you (an individual) can get stuff at the same wholesale rate as a store can. Stop your whining.

I was in Goleta to play a show last summer. Kent lives with Lisa from Ebullition and Brett (her husband.) Brett and Lisa have two kids. One of those three gets to stay home with the kids when there is a show. Kent and Brett got stuck going to our show and Lisa got kid duty that night.

I realize that Kent is somewhat of a public figure and people like to talk shit, but dude is a long time friend and I wish people would stop making things up and/or criticizing him about things without understanding the facts.

[xxxMidgexxx]

Rise Against > Born Against

Going to assume this is a joke.

Born Against were an amazing band. "Mary and Child" is such a good song (especially the original version.) I thought they were great live as well.

Not a joke.

Rise Against much better than Born Against.

[Welly]

Rise Against > Born Against

So wrong.

And you think I don't like punk rock? Ladies and gentlemen, the evidence is at hand here.

Shoot me for liking early Fat, Hellcat, and Epitaph stuff.

That stuff (by and large) just isn't my bag.

What did you listen to in the 90's JGJR?

[yourenotevil]

We've been over this stupid criticism about Ebullition before. They made the decision to be a distro selling to stores, and to get out of the mailorder business. However, if you want to place an order with the same minimum dollar amount as a store, you (an individual) can get stuff at the same wholesale rate as a store can. Stop your whining.

I was in Goleta to play a show last summer. Kent lives with Lisa from Ebullition and Brett (her husband.) Brett and Lisa have two kids. One of those three gets to stay home with the kids when there is a show. Kent and Brett got stuck going to our show and Lisa got kid duty that night.

I realize that Kent is somewhat of a public figure and people like to talk shit, but dude is a long time friend and I wish people would stop making things up and/or criticizing him about things without understanding the facts.

eh, i still think it's lame they do that. it's not whining, it's an opinion. i know you have ties to the label, but lighten up francis. either way, not letting some guy reprint an old BA interview is still wack.

as for the rev show, i was told by by his girlfriend that shows like that weren't his thing and that is why he wasn't there.

by all accounts kent has mellowed out and is a nice guy, but i do not know him personally. i have only dealt with him through email a couple of times. but for the record, i am not making anything up when i talk about him.

[the mean]

eh, i still think it's lame they do that. it's not whining, it's an opinion.

Why? Most distros that are geared towards getting records into stores won't sell to individuals at all. Ebullition not only sells to individuals, but will give you the same wholesale discount that stores get. Would you rather they not sell to individuals at all? Why is it lame to offer something extra like this?

[dave123]

I thought the $100 policy was a bummer when Kent implemented it years ago, but how Kent runs his corporation is his choice. He doesn't want the small order business, end of, his choice. He also chose to take a step back from his role in hardcore, which I respected as well. Good dude overall. I hope he is doing well and still enjoying Youth of Today and Beyond Possession.

Born Against... decent band who put out some good records and some okay records. I just kind of got tired of how they spent a lot of their energy (or at least Sam's energy) bad talking other hardcore bands (the WNYU thing with SOIA for instance). Lets talk about an awesome band led by an awesome positive dude... Rorschach.

[Welly]

eh, i still think it's lame they do that. it's not whining, it's an opinion.

Why? Most distros that are geared towards getting records into stores won't sell to individuals at all. Ebullition not only sells to individuals, but will give you the same wholesale discount that stores get. Would you rather they not sell to individuals at all? Why is it lame to offer something extra like this?

Get with the program man. This is the entitlement age. Everything at our convenience and even that's not good enough. Remember when you ordered a record and it said 'allow 28 days for delivery'? Now if you sell records it's more like 28 hours before some entitled socially inept fuck puts a Paypal claim in against you without so much as a word.*

*None of this aimed at you YNE.

[dave123]

eh, i still think it's lame they do that. it's not whining, it's an opinion.

Why? Most distros that are geared towards getting records into stores won't sell to individuals at all. Ebullition not only sells to individuals, but will give you the same wholesale discount that stores get. Would you rather they not sell to individuals at all? Why is it lame to offer something extra like this?

Get with the program man. This is the entitlement age. Everything at our convenience and even that's not good enough. Remember when you ordered a record and it said 'allow 28 days for delivery'? Now if you sell records it's more like 28 hours before some entitled socially inept fuck puts a Paypal claim in against you without so much as a word.*

*None of this aimed at you YNE.

You got that right. I hate selling on Ebay because of this. I remember Revelation mail-order taking forever. I would always slow it down by asking Jordan a million questions. Eventually, I always got a cool letter with all of my questions answered and a bunch of freebies thrown in for the wait. I rarely get a personal note included with anything I order.

[yourenotevil]

eh, i still think it's lame they do that. it's not whining, it's an opinion.

Why? Most distros that are geared towards getting records into stores won't sell to individuals at all. Ebullition not only sells to individuals, but will give you the same wholesale discount that stores get. Would you rather they not sell to individuals at all? Why is it lame to offer something extra like this?

dude...making someone go in on a hundred dollar order or fifty dollar order is not reasonable. like dave said, it is his choice, but it is also my choice to criticize it. i would gladly pay him a higher price for his stuff if he broke down for an individual, smaller order. i actually remember emailing him asking for that zine since it was two bucks or something. i went through the whole damn site and came up with a sizeable amount of stuff, but it wasn't close to 100 dollars. he still wouldn't budge. he should be stoked people still give a shit about no answers in 2014. most ppl would probably just send it for free or for the postage alone. i guess you have to respect the dude for taking stances, but to me it was always about the wrong shit no one cared about-- this fiasco, feral cats, SOIA going to in effect records, etc. No Answers is still one of the top zines ever for HC as far as layout, photos and interviews went. He should pass the NA book idea off to someone else, I know it would sell at least as well as the Town of HC and Schism books.

[obik]

eh, i still think it's lame they do that. it's not whining, it's an opinion.

Why? Most distros that are geared towards getting records into stores won't sell to individuals at all. Ebullition not only sells to individuals, but will give you the same wholesale discount that stores get. Would you rather they not sell to individuals at all? Why is it lame to offer something extra like this?

dude...making someone go in on a hundred dollar order or fifty dollar order is not reasonable. like dave said, it is his choice, but it is also my choice to criticize it. i would gladly pay him a higher price for his stuff if he broke down for an individual, smaller order. i actually remember emailing him asking for that zine since it was two bucks or something. i went through the whole damn site and came up with a sizeable amount of stuff, but it wasn't close to 100 dollars. he still wouldn't budge. he should be stoked people still give a shit about no answers in 2014. most ppl would probably just send it for free or for the postage alone. i guess you have to respect the dude for taking stances, but to me it was always about the wrong shit no one cared about-- this fiasco, feral cats, SOIA going to in effect records, etc. No Answers is still one of the top zines ever for HC as far as layout, photos and interviews went. He should pass the NA book idea off to someone else, I know it would sell at least as well as the Town of HC and Schism books.

I have a question, and I don't want to be a dick about it, but do you actually create, distro, or sell anything?

Because you seem to spend a lot of your time bitching about artists scrabbling for money or small business owners trying to stay solvent and sane. You have zero patience or sympathy for the fact that making and selling music is a shitty fucking life most of the time. Head on over to Bags Unlimited or U-Line and take a look at LP mailer prices and then consider for a moment how much space 500 or a thousand single disc mailers takes up. Now add in small LP mailer boxes, 7" mailers, 7" boxes, CD mailers, CD boxes, and all the other small mailer's he'd need to buy in quantity in order to keep the per-unit handling cost reasonable. Packing records up also takes time, money, and space, and it's an enormous pain in the ass. Clark or Kent or Connor MacLeod or whatever the fuck his name is has made a decision not to ship small orders. I understand completely and I wish I could do the same. It would save me a ton of money and time.

Of course, if he sold direct to customers with no minimum order you'd probably bitch about the shipping costs. Or the fact that he was undercutting record stores. Or the fact that your prostate's acting up so sitting down hurts and it's gotta be Ebullition's because your prostate was fine until that one time Kanye McLard stuck a microphone up your butt.

[the mean]

You are acting like my 6 year old. If we ever go out of our way to do something extra for him, he always complains about not getting something else on top of that.

[yourenotevil]

You are acting like my 6 year old. If we ever go out of our way to do something extra for him, he always complains about not getting something else on top of that.

you are pretty much acting like the child here actually. i have said the same thing as at least two people here and you choose to single me out. in the case of your piss poor analogy, no one is doing anything for me here, extra or otherwise. like i said, if someone comes down the line 20 plus years after i did a zine and wanted to reprint the interview, i would let them do it. i would also break down about my minimum order and send the zine. keep ballhugging kent, but get off my ass about it. i totally see why you were a part of that scene.

[yourenotevil]

eh, i still think it's lame they do that. it's not whining, it's an opinion.

Why? Most distros that are geared towards getting records into stores won't sell to individuals at all. Ebullition not only sells to individuals, but will give you the same wholesale discount that stores get. Would you rather they not sell to individuals at all? Why is it lame to offer something extra like this?

dude...making someone go in on a hundred dollar order or fifty dollar order is not reasonable. like dave said, it is his choice, but it is also my choice to criticize it. i would gladly pay him a higher price for his stuff if he broke down for an individual, smaller order. i actually remember emailing him asking for that zine since it was two bucks or something. i went through the whole damn site and came up with a sizeable amount of stuff, but it wasn't close to 100 dollars. he still wouldn't budge. he should be stoked people still give a shit about no answers in 2014. most ppl would probably just send it for free or for the postage alone. i guess you have to respect the dude for taking stances, but to me it was always about the wrong shit no one cared about-- this fiasco, feral cats, SOIA going to in effect records, etc. No Answers is still one of the top zines ever for HC as far as layout, photos and interviews went. He should pass the NA book idea off to someone else, I know it would sell at least as well as the Town of HC and Schism books.

I have a question, and I don't want to be a dick about it, but do you actually create, distro, or sell anything?

Because you seem to spend a lot of your time bitching about artists scrabbling for money or small business owners trying to stay solvent and sane. You have zero patience or sympathy for the fact that making and selling music is a shitty fucking life most of the time. Head on over to Bags Unlimited or U-Line and take a look at LP mailer prices and then consider for a moment how much space 500 or a thousand single disc mailers takes up. Now add in small LP mailer boxes, 7" mailers, 7" boxes, CD mailers, CD boxes, and all the other small mailer's he'd need to buy in quantity in order to keep the per-unit handling cost reasonable. Packing records up also takes time, money, and space, and it's an enormous pain in the ass. Clark or Kent or Connor MacLeod or whatever the fuck his name is has made a decision not to ship small orders. I understand completely and I wish I could do the same. It would save me a ton of money and time.

Of course, if he sold direct to customers with no minimum order you'd probably bitch about the shipping costs. Or the fact that he was undercutting record stores. Or the fact that your prostate's acting up so sitting down hurts and it's gotta be Ebullition's because your prostate was fine until that one time Kanye McLard stuck a microphone up your butt.

something is up your ass, that is for sure! like i said, it is his choice to not sell to individuals, my choice to criticize it. i even offered to pay more than he was asking for the zine to make it worth his time. it would have been easier than looking around on ebay for it, which is where i eventually got a copy from. also, i am glad you called me out on my tendencies to favor the man over mom and pop operations. i buy all my records from walmart. but for real, i get "making and selling music is a shitty life most of the time." that is not what i am talking about here. save your speeches for the right time. and if you hate selling music that much, get into another line of work. i don't know what else to tell you.

[obik]

something is up your ass, that is for sure! like i said, it is his choice to not sell to individuals, my choice to criticize it. i even offered to pay more than he was asking for the zine to make it worth his time.

You're the kinda guy who tries to order beef tartare in a hamburger joint, then stomps off in a huff when they refuse to serve you and posts angrily about it on the internet:

"I mean, fuck, it's only raw beef. I know they've got that in the kitchen, but why the wouldn't they serve it to me? I even offered to pay more, man! It woulda been easier to order it there then get it from the grocery store like I finally did."

also, i am glad you called me out on my tendencies to favor the man over mom and pop operations.

I didn't call you out on that. I called you out on your tendency to criticize people for doing what they feel the need to do to make art and/or a living as part of the musical culture you appreciate, when their actions cause you exactly zero harm and little or no inconvenience. You love to tell us exactly how you'd do things completely differently, without any apparent realization that hey, the real world isn't as simple as writing a post on a message board. Clark whastshisface can't wish himself another couple hundred (or thousand) square feet of space and two or three more pickers.

and if you hate selling music that much, get into another line of work. i don't know what else to tell you.

I love selling music. It's the best job in the world. But it's not easy.

[yourenotevil]

something is up your ass, that is for sure! like i said, it is his choice to not sell to individuals, my choice to criticize it. i even offered to pay more than he was asking for the zine to make it worth his time.

You're the kinda guy who tries to order beef tartare in a hamburger joint, then stomps off in a huff when they refuse to serve you and posts angrily about it on the internet:

"I mean, fuck, it's only raw beef. I know they've got that in the kitchen, but why the wouldn't they serve it to me? I even offered to pay more, man! It woulda been easier to order it there then get it from the grocery store like I finally did."

also, i am glad you called me out on my tendencies to favor the man over mom and pop operations.

I didn't call you out on that. I called you out on your tendency to criticize people for doing what they feel the need to do to make art and/or a living as part of the musical culture you appreciate, when their actions cause you exactly zero harm and little or no inconvenience. You love to tell us exactly how you'd do things completely differently, without any apparent realization that hey, the real world isn't as simple as writing a post on a message board. Clark whastshisface can't wish himself another couple hundred (or thousand) square feet of space and two or three more pickers.

and if you hate selling music that much, get into another line of work. i don't know what else to tell you.

I love selling music. It's the best job in the world. But it's not easy.

restaurant part of your argument--total bullshit. he is free to do what he wants as a distro. my point was i think he can let snake reprint the zine interview and i don't see the big deal of selling the zine. i made my points, if you don't like them, fine. i don't think your argument really applies here. as someone who did a zine, if someone emailed me asking for some shit i wrote 20 years ago, i would be beyond thrilled anyone remembered or cared about something like that, and i would just send it to them. once i bought a zine off ebay. the guy who wrote the zine had lost on the bidding. he offered me like 4 times what i paid for it since he didn't have a copy of his own zine. the offer was like 70 bucks or something crazy like that. i just told him I would sell it to him for what i paid for it. you are acting like it is some big fucking deal to sell a guy a zine for two bucks. get over it.


" I called you out on your tendency to criticize people for doing what they feel the need to do to make art and/or a living as part of the musical culture you appreciate."

Yeah, I don't like kickstarter, since I am guessing this is what you are referring to.If you think I am the only one who feels this way, check the first episode of South Park from this season. I also support whatever is left of punk rock culture as much or more than the next guy on this board. Like I said, I am free to criticize a distro's policy. I also fully know the world is not as simple as posting on a message board. You said you were trying not to be a dick, but you most certainly were. Don't be patronizing on top of that.

you say you love selling music, I sure wouldn't know it from that way you talk about it. For real, I am glad you can make a living doing it in this day and age. But like most jobs, nothing is easy when it comes to work.


Writing this, I feel like we have discussed this shit before. As Welly posted, I do think it has all been said and done on here already. A wise poster once said "you never win an argument here." i'll add that this place has become tedious as of late. why does everyone have to act like a fucking asshole if you don't agree with them on every point they make? not saying i am never guilty of this, but it seems to be pretty rampant as of late.