DRUMS!

[version sound]

After years of listening to punk and indie records with the drums pushed to the background, the latest round of good remasters (Zeppelin in particular, but also the Beatles) is making me appreciate good drumming in a way that I never have before. Ironic, since my first instrument was snare in school band. I would have been a drummer but for the fact that my parents were too cheap and afraid of the potential racket to buy me a drum set. Anyway, WTF is wrong with modern (mostly anything past some point in the '70s) music mixing the drums into the background? The Beatles had the mix just about right, with drums equal in volume and importance with the guitars.

[scannest]

I dunno, weren't the '80s awash in heavily gated, super LOUD drums? That's how I remember it.
As far as the Beatles recordings, I highly (HIGHLY) recommend Geoff Emerick's book, "Here, There, and Everywhere." He engineered virtually every important recording the Beatles ever made. It is highly insightful if you are interested in how they got things to sound they way they did. You come to appreciate what a feat it was to mix and balance those records - we're talking 4 tracks at a time! Crazy.

[version sound]

Yeah, the '80s pop stuff is all gated drums that come across sounding like a drum machine.

[tango fistula]

I have always mixed drums and bass way up...then guitar and vocals.

Its always annoying to have vocals squash everything but it took 30 years before
people started backing off on the "vox up front" 50's-60's approach.

[danny]

Moar Drums!

[scannest]

Moar Drums!

Is that a Tolkien thing? Sounds like it.

[Welly]

These go to eleven.

[jason powell]

One thing I also think that has changed since the Beatles or the Beach Boys etc is that jazz is less of a direct influence on getting sounds "right". Drums were more nuanced and quieter in some ways and arrangements had acoustic guitars mixed in. It was a little less "bombastic", and I feel like they tried to civilize the sound of early rock music in a way, but also, the music itself had different roots than what it is today. But that basic sound has been stripped down over time. Every rock record since Led Zep and Motown had loud snares in just about every song. New wavy synth pop and the post-disco soft r+b 80's stuff aside, even hair bands had the loud snare beats in their stuff, but, it was gated and a lot of drummers actually muffled their kits, so all you'd hear was the snap of the stick on the skins and then nothing, which is really weird. But thats like the minimalist style which I think came in from the soft jazzy r+b stuff and influence of synth pop stuff carrying over from the mid 70's to mid 80's.

[version sound]

Yeah, I have always liked jazz drums.

[john stabb]

I truly cannot play drums to save my life and hate a terrible drum sound in recordings The big problem I have with Huskers these days is Grant's drum sound - it really takes away from how great the song is. I hate the sound of Hart's drums on records. Much prefer the Sugar-drums. Marc Alberstadt hates almost every recording he played on because he thinks the drum sound is horrible. He once told me when he wanted to play something he did for someone, he'd reach all the way back to the Original 1980 G.I. Demo. I personally think he's too hard on himself because I like his drum sound on everything but Legless Bull (but nothing you can do about that one).

80's big drum sounds are the worst (Def Leopard, Quiet Riot, Ratt, Poison, Springsteen, whatever). I love a great drum sound from the 60's. And Welly knows what he speaks: if you don't have a great drum sound on a recording - just hang it up now and forget about ever being in a band.

[version sound]

Moar Drums!

YES. The next time you guys are mixing, just bump your drums up a bit while no one's looking. There is too much guitar and not enough drums on most rock records, and I say that as a guitar player.

[yourenotevil]

growing up with a lot of the 2nd or 3rd wave of powerviolence, i heard a lot of drummers complain about being too low in the mix on their recordings. if often came down to whoever paid for the studio time mixed it with their instrument as the loudest, and 9 times out of ten that was the guitar player. 80s drum production for most rock/mainstram records were goddamn horrible. i don't know whether to blame that on phil collins or not. the record sound on the most of the judas priest albums in the mid to late 80s was goddamn embarrassing.

[version sound]

80s drum production for most rock/mainstram records were goddamn horrible. i don't know whether to blame that on phil collins or not.

PiL took credit for inventing it on Flowers of Romance. I don't know if that's something I'd want credit for personally.

[scannest]

VS, I'm guessing the issue with drum sounds on a lot of the records you listen to comes down to $$$. Guitars can be recorded just about anywhere with just about any mic and sound good (assuming the guitarist has good equipment). But a drummer can have a vintage Pearl/Premier/Ludwig/What-have-you kit, but if he's not being recorded in a good sounding room with the right mics, it's gonna sound crummy. Home recording is not built for quality drum sounds.
Guys who own studios will tell you that their saving grace is knowing what to do with drums. When I was talking to J Robbins about recording at his place, he said a lot of people will come in and just record drums and then take the tracks home to do guitar/vocals/etc. The one place you can't 'go cheap' is recording drums. Unless you intend on keeping them in the background, but that should be an aesthetic choice, not a monetary one.

[gregpolard]

VS, I'm guessing the issue with drum sounds on a lot of the records you listen to comes down to $$$. Guitars can be recorded just about anywhere with just about any mic and sound good (assuming the guitarist has good equipment). But a drummer can have a vintage Pearl/Premier/Ludwig/What-have-you kit, but if he's not being recorded in a good sounding room with the right mics, it's gonna sound crummy. Home recording is not built for quality drum sounds.
Guys who own studios will tell you that their saving grace is knowing what to do with drums. When I was talking to J Robbins about recording at his place, he said a lot of people will come in and just record drums and then take the tracks home to do guitar/vocals/etc. The one place you can't 'go cheap' is recording drums. Unless you intend on keeping them in the background, but that should be an aesthetic choice, not a monetary one.

Hit the nail on the head right there. I don't know much about that kinda stuff but I know a big reason a lot of people like Studio 4 in Conshohocken is the sound of the room where the drums are recorded.

[MXV]

80s drum production for most rock/mainstram records were goddamn horrible. i don't know whether to blame that on phil collins or not.

PiL took credit for inventing it on Flowers of Romance. I don't know if that's something I'd want credit for personally.

The drum sound on Flowers of Romance is actually one of my favorite things about it. It is so prominent in the mix, especially on the opening track. That Martin Atkins was one hell of a drummer.

[version sound]

VS, I'm guessing the issue with drum sounds on a lot of the records you listen to comes down to $$$.

Absolutely. How many punk/hardcore records were recorded with big budgets in fancy studios? Not a lot. I also think that drums get taken for granted a lot. The problem isn't always that the drums sound bad, but they are mixed to be audible, and nothing more. So you can hear the drums, but you can't really hear any detail. Part of that is undoubtedly due to the egos of the guitarist/singer, but I think that part of it is also having 48 tracks and wanting to cram something into every available space. Most records sound better with fewer tracks, IMO. I'd usually rather actually HEAR one guitar, one bass, and one drum kit than a bunch of stuff piled up to make it sound "fat".

[john stabb]

Does anyone else have a problem with Grant's drum sound in Huskers Yep, most punk bands never had huge recording budgets. G.I. did okay with our putting a 5 thousand dollar advance (which I wonder if in 80's indie-days was a lot) into S/T, You & Crash recoded @ Lion & Fox (Where mostly Reggae bands & Scream did sessions). We weren't going to be half-assed about it. Unfortunately, we thought we'd make that back down the line but a little thing called Giant/Rockville Records/Dutch East India Trading Co. had other ideas. Makes me wonder how much does a band like say Rancid get for recording lousy records

[xxxMidgexxx]

Neil Conti from Prefab Sprout is an underrated pro.

Also underrated is James Lo that used to be in Live Skull.

[xxxMidgexxx]

G.I. 5 thousand dollar advance

Obviously, wardrobe was not on the agenda.

[scannest]

Also underrated is James Lo that used to be in Chavez.

Fixed.

[xxxMidgexxx]

Also underrated is James Lo that used to be in Chavez.

Fixed.

Did he go to be in that band too? he was great.

[danny]

for me - the best punk drum sounds were with killing joke. no matter who was playing, they always got a huge sound out of the toms and kick. but the best rock drum sound of all time is certainly bonham. not just because of how and what he plays...but because it is such an integral and forceful part of the songs.

i hate compressed drums. i love a live, wet sound. and i loathe electronic drums.

[john stabb]

Midge, none of us sunk any of our advances into our stage wardrobe but I managed to score some amazing thrift show threads wherever I could. You know you have dreams of yourself wearing my wardrobe, mate.