Why L.A. Is More Punk Than New York

[akissfan]

http://www.laweekly.com/westcoastsound/2014/08/05/why-la-is-more-punk-than-new-york

[akissfan]

Thoughts?

[JGJR]

Thoughts?

Yeah. The writer is a troll and it's pure clickbait with little substance and thought going into the article. If he would've figured out or known that Jeffrey Lee Pierce and Kid Congo Powers (two LA natives super influential who were major players in LA punk; JLP was Keith Morris' roommate and best friend) were Presidents of the Blondie and Ramones fan clubs, respectively, I think that shoots holes into his theory right there.

I really like a lot of the LA stuff, too, but this just feels like half-truths or making selective points just to advance an agenda. I hate this article!

And, not or. In other words, why can't one like both LA and NYC punk (and many other scenes)? This writer should learn that lesson. Without the Ramones, none of the UK bands that a lot of the LA folks liked would have the speed that influenced them directly (ala the early Damned).

And let's not pretend that the mosh pit was ever a good thing. One thing I don't like about LA punk is the jockishness/thugishness of the HB crowd that replaced dancing/pogoing with hitting people.

Opinionated enough for you?

[version sound]

I'll take Frisco.

[xxxMidgexxx]

Midge rules all of them.

xXx

[Knutsen]

LA has the Black Flag musical, NYC just a Cromags vegan soup kitchen.
NYC has fucking Hardcore real estate prices, LA has Bad Religion playing in Retirement homes called the Black hole.
Stiv Bators, Johnny Thunders and Joey Ramone are as dead as Punk is, and Henry Rollins is doing a presentation for his latest beauty line products.

[Welly]

Why something is more punk than something else?

1983 called, it wants its MRR letter back.

[WrEtcH]

I'll take Frisco.

I''d still take LA

but there's still a lot of great bands in the area that get ignored.

[clash77]

http://www.laweekly.com/westcoastsound/2014/08/05/why-la-is-more-punk-than-new-york

Can I take this seriously?..As a non fan of punk rock, I remain indifferent..

[john stabb]

All of the sudden these writers want to write these worship Black Flag pieces like they just discovered this cool band from the early 80's just the other day. And The Doors I'll take Lou over that crap. Ramones, Talking Heads & Blondie (or Television, for that matter) were never a dangerous Punk band but it doesn't mean they sucked. Cool bands, nonetheless. I bet you this writer just wants to prove how cool they are for even mentioning all these groups.

[version sound]

I would have rather lived in L.A. The NYC scene may have produced a lot of great music, but it didn't seem like much fun. VU >>>> Doors >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lou solo.

[JGJR]

All of the sudden these writers want to write these worship Black Flag pieces like they just discovered this cool band from the early 80's just the other day. And The Doors I'll take Lou over that crap. Ramones, Talking Heads & Blondie (or Television, for that matter) were never a dangerous Punk band but it doesn't mean they sucked. Cool bands, nonetheless. I bet you this writer just wants to prove how cool they are for even mentioning all these groups.

Yep, though I do like The Doors, too.

[dave123]

And let's not pretend that the mosh pit was ever a good thing. One thing I don't like about LA punk is the jockishness/thugishness of the HB crowd that replaced dancing/pogoing with hitting people.

Opinionated enough for you?

Yep, opinionated enough;) I can't agree though. I wouldn't have stayed interested in hardcore punk if the HB crew hadn't "jocked/thugged" it up or if the "mosh pit" hadn't replaced the pogo. I will admit it, as a kid, I leaned way more to the jock side of things to the art side. If there wasn't violence or some "pit" to do flips into, I would have been long gone. Then again, if I wasn't playing football (soccer) or skateboarding, I was probably throwing rocks through windows. My friends and I were spoiled kids from the suburbs hell bent on chaos and annihilation, and we needed a soundtrack. We hated punks and gave them a hard time. We hated the artpunks and goths even more, and gave them a really hard time. There was not much of this "one scene" thing, and it was mutual, the old punks and artsy crowd hated us. Pogoing/dancing... c'mon. It was way more exciting to stage dive and be part of the fun. Blood was essential. Broken bones, even better. Just saying.

[JGJR]

And let's not pretend that the mosh pit was ever a good thing. One thing I don't like about LA punk is the jockishness/thugishness of the HB crowd that replaced dancing/pogoing with hitting people.

Opinionated enough for you?

Yep, opinionated enough;) I can't agree though. I wouldn't have stayed interested in hardcore punk if the HB crew hadn't "jocked/thugged" it up or if the "mosh pit" hadn't replaced the pogo. I will admit it, as a kid, I leaned way more to the jock side of things to the art side. If there wasn't violence or some "pit" to do flips into, I would have been long gone. Then again, if I wasn't playing football (soccer) or skateboarding, I was probably throwing rocks through windows. My friends and I were spoiled kids from the suburbs hell bent on chaos and annihilation, and we needed a soundtrack. We hated punks and gave them a hard time. We hated the artpunks and goths even more, and gave them a really hard time. There was not much of this "one scene" thing, and it was mutual, the old punks and artsy crowd hated us. Pogoing/dancing... c'mon. It was way more exciting to stage dive and be part of the fun. Blood was essential. Broken bones, even better. Just saying.

See, the whole thing is that mentality led to more and more ridiculous violence, people going to shows with their gang, bringing guns to shows, diving off of speakers and folks generally going there to hurt people instead of hearing the music and hanging out. Most punks, etc. got into as kids to get away from that sort of jock mentality, so of course it was disturbing. And sorry, but I don't think it's fun to have anyone land on me or to jump on people.

With all that said, though, I think the scene I came out (early '90s DIY hardcore/punk) was a complete and total reaction to that '80s NYHC (or HB) type mentality (though obviously it was prevalent in other places, too) though of course it was a continuation of the same thread of music. It got to be too ridiculous, too, though, with folks sitting on the floor and afraid to show any kind of enthusiasm. There should be some middle ground.

I know we won't agree on this, but I just want to make my point of view on this clear.

[Welly]

And let's not pretend that the mosh pit was ever a good thing. One thing I don't like about LA punk is the jockishness/thugishness of the HB crowd that replaced dancing/pogoing with hitting people.

Opinionated enough for you?

Yep, opinionated enough;) I can't agree though. I wouldn't have stayed interested in hardcore punk if the HB crew hadn't "jocked/thugged" it up or if the "mosh pit" hadn't replaced the pogo. I will admit it, as a kid, I leaned way more to the jock side of things to the art side. If there wasn't violence or some "pit" to do flips into, I would have been long gone. Then again, if I wasn't playing football (soccer) or skateboarding, I was probably throwing rocks through windows. My friends and I were spoiled kids from the suburbs hell bent on chaos and annihilation, and we needed a soundtrack. We hated punks and gave them a hard time. We hated the artpunks and goths even more, and gave them a really hard time. There was not much of this "one scene" thing, and it was mutual, the old punks and artsy crowd hated us. Pogoing/dancing... c'mon. It was way more exciting to stage dive and be part of the fun. Blood was essential. Broken bones, even better. Just saying.

See, the whole thing is that mentality led to more and more ridiculous violence, people going to shows with their gang, bringing guns to shows, diving off of speakers and folks generally going there to hurt people instead of hearing the music and hanging out. Most punks, etc. got into as kids to get away from that sort of jock mentality, so of course it was disturbing. And sorry, but I don't think it's fun to have anyone land on me or to jump on people.

With all that said, though, I think the scene I came out (early '90s DIY hardcore/punk) was a complete and total reaction to that '80s NYHC (or HB) type mentality (though obviously it was prevalent in other places, too) though of course it was a continuation of the same thread of music. It got to be too ridiculous, too, though, with folks sitting on the floor and afraid to show any kind of enthusiasm. There should be some middle ground.

I know we won't agree on this, but I just want to make my point of view on this clear.

Call me old fashioned but... I'd take the youth tribalism we experienced, with all its bad points, over what exists now.

[dave123]

And let's not pretend that the mosh pit was ever a good thing. One thing I don't like about LA punk is the jockishness/thugishness of the HB crowd that replaced dancing/pogoing with hitting people.

Opinionated enough for you?

Yep, opinionated enough;) I can't agree though. I wouldn't have stayed interested in hardcore punk if the HB crew hadn't "jocked/thugged" it up or if the "mosh pit" hadn't replaced the pogo. I will admit it, as a kid, I leaned way more to the jock side of things to the art side. If there wasn't violence or some "pit" to do flips into, I would have been long gone. Then again, if I wasn't playing football (soccer) or skateboarding, I was probably throwing rocks through windows. My friends and I were spoiled kids from the suburbs hell bent on chaos and annihilation, and we needed a soundtrack. We hated punks and gave them a hard time. We hated the artpunks and goths even more, and gave them a really hard time. There was not much of this "one scene" thing, and it was mutual, the old punks and artsy crowd hated us. Pogoing/dancing... c'mon. It was way more exciting to stage dive and be part of the fun. Blood was essential. Broken bones, even better. Just saying.

See, the whole thing is that mentality led to more and more ridiculous violence, people going to shows with their gang, bringing guns to shows, diving off of speakers and folks generally going there to hurt people instead of hearing the music and hanging out. Most punks, etc. got into as kids to get away from that sort of jock mentality, so of course it was disturbing. And sorry, but I don't think it's fun to have anyone land on me or to jump on people.

With all that said, though, I think the scene I came out (early '90s DIY hardcore/punk) was a complete and total reaction to that '80s NYHC (or HB) type mentality (though obviously it was prevalent in other places, too) though of course it was a continuation of the same thread of music. It got to be too ridiculous, too, though, with folks sitting on the floor and afraid to show any kind of enthusiasm. There should be some middle ground.

I know we won't agree on this, but I just want to make my point of view on this clear.

I hear you. I wasn't condoning the violence or jumping on peoples heads. In fact, I was doing the opposite. The early hardcore punk scene was insane and wrong just like vandalism is wrong. But it was exciting for a kid. You had serious maniacs hanging with drag queens hanging with meat-head skinheads hanging with drugged out freaks and a few adolescent skateboarders like myself. Nothing made sense and because of that, it was crazy and fun like your first ollie down a flight of stairs or dropping in on a vert ramp for the first time. Sure you might get hurt, but that element of "not knowing" attracted me to the whole thing and kept me coming back as a young teenager. You are right though, violence and jumping on peoples' heads is wrong, but that element of hardcore punk is what kept my young self coming back for more.

The scene you came into was a lot different. In some ways, it was cool just in a different way. Lots of good discussions were undertaken about some awesome topics. People were pushing things to the limits with animal rights, feminism, etc. The music was interesting and not as formulaic (which was not always a good thing). Was it exciting? In some ways sure, but I don't know if the 13 year old me would have thought so. It was more thought provoking and safe. Which caused a later reaction with bands like OLC and even Ink & Dagger lashing out against the weird holier than thou attitudes that were being adopted. I saw some of the best shows ever during this time and some of the worst... (it would be torture to watch Still Life play again but I had a great time seeing Mineral at a house show in Gainesville and Los Crudos in North Dakota). However, it was more a scene for intellectuals and college types rather than you average knuckle dragging street freak. Oh well...

[yourenotevil]

And let's not pretend that the mosh pit was ever a good thing. One thing I don't like about LA punk is the jockishness/thugishness of the HB crowd that replaced dancing/pogoing with hitting people.

Opinionated enough for you?

Yep, opinionated enough;) I can't agree though. I wouldn't have stayed interested in hardcore punk if the HB crew hadn't "jocked/thugged" it up or if the "mosh pit" hadn't replaced the pogo. I will admit it, as a kid, I leaned way more to the jock side of things to the art side. If there wasn't violence or some "pit" to do flips into, I would have been long gone. Then again, if I wasn't playing football (soccer) or skateboarding, I was probably throwing rocks through windows. My friends and I were spoiled kids from the suburbs hell bent on chaos and annihilation, and we needed a soundtrack. We hated punks and gave them a hard time. We hated the artpunks and goths even more, and gave them a really hard time. There was not much of this "one scene" thing, and it was mutual, the old punks and artsy crowd hated us. Pogoing/dancing... c'mon. It was way more exciting to stage dive and be part of the fun. Blood was essential. Broken bones, even better. Just saying.

See, the whole thing is that mentality led to more and more ridiculous violence, people going to shows with their gang, bringing guns to shows, diving off of speakers and folks generally going there to hurt people instead of hearing the music and hanging out. Most punks, etc. got into as kids to get away from that sort of jock mentality, so of course it was disturbing. And sorry, but I don't think it's fun to have anyone land on me or to jump on people.

With all that said, though, I think the scene I came out (early '90s DIY hardcore/punk) was a complete and total reaction to that '80s NYHC (or HB) type mentality (though obviously it was prevalent in other places, too) though of course it was a continuation of the same thread of music. It got to be too ridiculous, too, though, with folks sitting on the floor and afraid to show any kind of enthusiasm. There should be some middle ground.

I know we won't agree on this, but I just want to make my point of view on this clear.

I hear you. I wasn't condoning the violence or jumping on peoples heads. In fact, I was doing the opposite. The early hardcore punk scene was insane and wrong just like vandalism is wrong. But it was exciting for a kid. You had serious maniacs hanging with drag queens hanging with meat-head skinheads hanging with drugged out freaks and a few adolescent skateboarders like myself. Nothing made sense and because of that, it was crazy and fun like your first ollie down a flight of stairs or dropping in on a vert ramp for the first time. Sure you might get hurt, but that element of "not knowing" attracted me to the whole thing and kept me coming back as a young teenager. You are right though, violence and jumping on peoples' heads is wrong, but that element of hardcore punk is what kept my young self coming back for more.

The scene you came into was a lot different. In some ways, it was cool just in a different way. Lots of good discussions were undertaken about some awesome topics. People were pushing things to the limits with animal rights, feminism, etc. The music was interesting and not as formulaic (which was not always a good thing). Was it exciting? In some ways sure, but I don't know if the 13 year old me would have thought so. It was more thought provoking and safe. Which caused a later reaction with bands like OLC and even Ink & Dagger lashing out against the weird holier than thou attitudes that were being adopted. I saw some of the best shows ever during this time and some of the worst... (it would be torture to watch Still Life play again but I had a great time seeing Mineral at a house show in Gainesville and Los Crudos in North Dakota). However, it was more a scene for intellectuals and college types rather than you average knuckle dragging street freak. Oh well...

i don't think you can blame moshing on L.A., or if you can, it is nothing to be ashamed of! a bunch of people standing around watching a band is fucking boring man, esp if they are fast and aggressive. while I was never a veteran of the pit, I much prefer to see people going off at a hardcore show than standing there with their arms crossed. as for stage diving, if you stand right up front that comes with the territory. there is always some asshole trying to knock into ppl standing on the edge of the pit, but for the most part i see people having fun. the only time not to pit is if no one else is and you are bumping into people and pissing them off. that happened at saint vitus the last time i saw them and this drunk guy was really being a dick and almost got his ass kicked. as for most of 90s hc, i couldn't get down with the whole sitting on the floor shit.

[JGJR]

The scene you came into was a lot different. In some ways, it was cool just in a different way. Lots of good discussions were undertaken about some awesome topics. People were pushing things to the limits with animal rights, feminism, etc. The music was interesting and not as formulaic (which was not always a good thing). Was it exciting? In some ways sure, but I don't know if the 13 year old me would have thought so. It was more thought provoking and safe. Which caused a later reaction with bands like OLC and even Ink & Dagger lashing out against the weird holier than thou attitudes that were being adopted. I saw some of the best shows ever during this time and some of the worst... (it would be torture to watch Still Life play again but I had a great time seeing Mineral at a house show in Gainesville and Los Crudos in North Dakota). However, it was more a scene for intellectuals and college types rather than you average knuckle dragging street freak. Oh well...

Indeed. I can't remember if I ever saw Still Life or not (never did see Mineral), but agreed about Crudos and they were great people, too. I've said this before, but I still wish I had the interview I did with them in '94. It got lost over the years, though I remember transcribing it on paper at one point. Don't get me wrong, though. I listened to (and still listen to) the '70s and '80s stuff (including some stuff from the scenes I mentioned in my earlier post) way more than the early '90s stuff (there are some exceptions, though), but the mentality (at least initially) of the early '90s stuff appealed to my sensibilities way more. And you're also completely right about it getting WAY too holier than thou, which is one of the things that made me jump ship in the late '90s.

And FWIW, I did go to lots of stuff at City Gardens (and occasionally other venues, CBs, etc. that weren't hall, basement, church, college, etc. shows), which was kind of a holdover from the '80s in terms of the types it crowds it attracted (very much like what you describe) and had fun there almost every time I went and it was nuts, but thankfully the worst of the violence that venue experienced in the mid to late '80s had subsided by then.

[JGJR]

i don't think you can blame moshing on L.A.

It's pretty well documented that it started out as the HB strut and the DC guys took it back to the East Coast (and eventually up to New York at a Black Flag show at Peppermint Lounge) when Teen Idles went out there.

I'm not saying that some other similar place wouldn't have come up with it, but that's just the facts.

[yourenotevil]

i don't think you can blame moshing on L.A.

It's pretty well documented that it started out as the HB strut and the DC guys took it back to the East Coast (and eventually up to New York at a Black Flag show at Peppermint Lounge) when Teen Idles went out there.

I'm not saying that some other similar place wouldn't have come up with it, but that's just the facts.

like i said, it's nothing to be ashamed of! i know the stuff about the teen idles and everything, but i still wonder about early motorhead and maiden shows. the music was fast and i am not sure everyone was just pogo-ing to that stuff.

[dave123]

i don't think you can blame moshing on L.A.

It's pretty well documented that it started out as the HB strut and the DC guys took it back to the East Coast (and eventually up to New York at a Black Flag show at Peppermint Lounge) when Teen Idles went out there.

I'm not saying that some other similar place wouldn't have come up with it, but that's just the facts.

like i said, it's nothing to be ashamed of! i know the stuff about the teen idles and everything, but i still wonder about early motorhead and maiden shows. the music was fast and i am not sure everyone was just pogo-ing to that stuff.

I have no idea what early Motorhead and Iron Maiden club level shows were like, but at the arena level, things were pretty tame... fists in the air type stuff. I did see Motorhead years later in a small club and had a blast on their "dancefloor". I was pushing the metal heads pretty hard and thought I might get beaten a few times, but they seemed to take it in stride when I started banging their heads for them and climbing on top of people. It was pretty fun.

The first time I saw Slayer was a different kettle of fish. I can't remember the tour, but it was after Reign In Blood. There was a big circle pit with a hefty number of nazi bone heads in attendance. That was a serious bruise fest. People were literally just beating each other. I could only take a few minutes here and there. Navigating that show was weird because of the boneheads meandering around in packs. They would scowl at the few hardcore kids in attendance. We would get lost in the crowd. That's how the night went. They opened with Reign in Blood and it was the sonic highlight of my entire show going life. Musical perfection.

Anyone see Motorhead or Iron Maiden in a small setting?

[JGJR]

I have no idea what early Motorhead and Iron Maiden club level shows were like, but at the arena level, things were pretty tame... fists in the air type stuff. I did see Motorhead years later in a small club and had a blast on their "dancefloor". I was pushing the metal heads pretty hard and thought I might get beaten a few times, but they seemed to take it in stride when I started banging their heads for them and climbing on top of people. It was pretty fun.

The first time I saw Slayer was a different kettle of fish. I can't remember the tour, but it was after Reign In Blood. There was a big circle pit with a hefty number of nazi bone heads in attendance. That was a serious bruise fest. People were literally just beating each other. I could only take a few minutes here and there. Navigating that show was weird because of the boneheads meandering around in packs. They would scowl at the few hardcore kids in attendance. We would get lost in the crowd. That's how the night went. They opened with Reign in Blood and it was the sonic highlight of my entire show going life. Musical perfection.

Anyone see Motorhead or Iron Maiden in a small setting?

Nope (never seen either in any setting; would like to rectify that especially Motorhead) but my impression is that the metalheads got the moshing stuff from hardcore i.e. Anthrax's "Caught in a Mosh" and that was a few years before that Slayer show.

[Welly]

my impression is that the metalheads in the 80's got pretty much everything from hardcore

Fixed.

[JGJR]

my impression is that the metalheads in the 80's got pretty much everything from hardcore

Fixed.

Except the political outrage and lyrical bent though there are notable exceptions like Anthrax's "Who Cares Wins," some of Metallica's stuff, etc.

[dave123]

I have no idea what early Motorhead and Iron Maiden club level shows were like, but at the arena level, things were pretty tame... fists in the air type stuff. I did see Motorhead years later in a small club and had a blast on their "dancefloor". I was pushing the metal heads pretty hard and thought I might get beaten a few times, but they seemed to take it in stride when I started banging their heads for them and climbing on top of people. It was pretty fun.

The first time I saw Slayer was a different kettle of fish. I can't remember the tour, but it was after Reign In Blood. There was a big circle pit with a hefty number of nazi bone heads in attendance. That was a serious bruise fest. People were literally just beating each other. I could only take a few minutes here and there. Navigating that show was weird because of the boneheads meandering around in packs. They would scowl at the few hardcore kids in attendance. We would get lost in the crowd. That's how the night went. They opened with Reign in Blood and it was the sonic highlight of my entire show going life. Musical perfection.

Anyone see Motorhead or Iron Maiden in a small setting?

Nope (never seen either in any setting; would like to rectify that especially Motorhead) but my impression is that the metalheads got the moshing stuff from hardcore i.e. Anthrax's "Caught in a Mosh" and that was a few years before that Slayer show.

Yeah, but they never really "got it" that is why that Slayer show was more of a punch up to music. They never got the unspoken side of things, so boots first and fists flying were common for metal shows. Funny, I saw Anthrax on the tour for Among the Living, and there was no "mosh". I thought that song was pretty sad even though the rest of the record was good. Why can't metal just be metal and sing about creeping death and the number of the beast?

[Welly]

my impression is that the metalheads in the 80's got pretty much everything from hardcore

Fixed.

Except the political outrage and lyrical bent

Oh yeah, style over substance, packaged for commercialisation.

[clash77]

Flea, Darby, Keith, Exene, Dez. vs Joey, David, Dick,Two Johnny's,Sonny, and a fucking partridge in a pear tree..cmon now..

[Stormy]

east coast has the Stooges. instant win

[johnnotkathi]

Stooges were not a punk band.

Probably like John S, (ie old and in the scene near the start) from 77 to 85 I saw the transformation of pogoing to the HB strut to chaos pits to circle pits then the metal esqe head banging......etc......

Early on, pogoing could get pretty rough as well. It was not always smiling kids jumping straight up and down, but it definitely was different than the HB strut. I remember reading about it (while in SF) and literally the next week saw Black Flag at the Mab and there was a blend of pogoing and the strut - seeing it the first time it was kinda scary. A bunch of kids from LA came up and were letting the others on the floor have it. Once you got in the fray, it was fun! From what I saw early on, generally people were not targeting anyone, just doing their thing and if you got too close (which happened on a packed floor) you might catch a fist or elbow. You had to keep your chin tucked in....it was more art than science however.

I never minded the stage diving and such, it was part of the process and if you were up front, that's just the way it was.

It was all pretty fun and the scenes from SF and LA were very different. Oh, reminiscing about the old days.....

[JGJR]

east coast has the Stooges. instant win

I love The Stooges, but Michigan isn't on the East Coast.

[tango fistula]

I cut my teeth on some largely non-violent scenes in the early to mid 80's
(Phoenix and Connecticut) so I never got a taste for the mindless violence
or that "rush" at watching some 90 lb kid get wolfpacked by three huge fat bald men.

I never preferred shows that were 100 percent male so I usually opted
for a more inclusive scene/show.

Which is why I was relieved when Mike Bullshit, Esneider and the crew
decided to take NYHC into the 20th century with more inclusiveness, creativity
and community focus. I had long had my fill of jock garbage and stupid by choice crossover

[JGJR]

I cut my teeth on some largely non-violent scenes in the early to mid 80's
(Phoenix and Connecticut) so I never got a taste for the mindless violence
or that "rush" at watching some 90 lb kid get wolfpacked by three huge fat bald men.

I never preferred shows that were 100 percent male so I usually opted
for a more inclusive scene/show.

Which is why I was relieved when Mike Bullshit, Esneider and the crew
decided to take NYHC into the 20th century with more inclusiveness, creativity
and community focus. I had long had my fill of jock garbage and stupid by choice crossover

You sound like an ABC guy. I wonder if we've met, though I missed that scene by at least a good year or so. I did know a bunch of those folks in the early to mid '90s, though, and still see some of them around on occasion.

[WrEtcH]

Nope (never seen either in any setting; would like to rectify that especially Motorhead) but my impression is that the metalheads got the moshing stuff from hardcore i.e. Anthrax's "Caught in a Mosh" and that was a few years before that Slayer show.

it's weird, when I saw METALLICA in the clubs, it was basically flying hair at the time. basically the first 3 rows of the club were heading banging. I'm not sure how the pit got started, but for sure it happened a lot during EXODUS gigs. it's funny how much SLAYER stole from EXODUS. They even admitted the played faster from "Show No Mercy" to the "Haunting The Chapel" ep because of EXODUS.

(which is also a key why they have Gary Holt in the band now.)

[77clash]

Stooges were not a punk band.

Probably like John S, (ie old and in the scene near the start) from 77 to 85 I saw the transformation of pogoing to the HB strut to chaos pits to circle pits then the metal esqe head banging......etc......

Early on, pogoing could get pretty rough as well. It was not always smiling kids jumping straight up and down, but it definitely was different than the HB strut. I remember reading about it (while in SF) and literally the next week saw Black Flag at the Mab and there was a blend of pogoing and the strut - seeing it the first time it was kinda scary. A bunch of kids from LA came up and were letting the others on the floor have it. Once you got in the fray, it was fun! From what I saw early on, generally people were not targeting anyone, just doing their thing and if you got too close (which happened on a packed floor) you might catch a fist or elbow. You had to keep your chin tucked in....it was more art than science however.

I never minded the stage diving and such, it was part of the process and if you were up front, that's just the way it was.

It was all pretty fun and the scenes from SF and LA were very different. Oh, reminiscing about the old days.....

Can't wait to have these discussions with some beer and BBQ back in PA with you next Summer.

[tango fistula]

I cut my teeth on some largely non-violent scenes in the early to mid 80's
(Phoenix and Connecticut) so I never got a taste for the mindless violence
or that "rush" at watching some 90 lb kid get wolfpacked by three huge fat bald men.

I never preferred shows that were 100 percent male so I usually opted
for a more inclusive scene/show.

Which is why I was relieved when Mike Bullshit, Esneider and the crew
decided to take NYHC into the 20th century with more inclusiveness, creativity
and community focus. I had long had my fill of jock garbage and stupid by choice crossover

You sound like an ABC guy. I wonder if we've met, though I missed that scene by at least a good year or so. I did know a bunch of those folks in the early to mid '90s, though, and still see some of them around on occasion.

I'm a Anthrax (both locations) /ABC NO RIO/Squat Or Rot guy. When the 2nd Anthrax folded ABC NO RIO
had been rolling for a few years and picked up the slack in the Northeast as far as booking the new scene.
It was super cool to see such a supportive DIY punk scene start in the lamest least supportive major city in the U.S. People think it's L.A....nope...NYC. At least then. I'm sure it's not fashion focused and neighborhood centric like it was for the 20 years I had to play there ( )

[JGJR]

I cut my teeth on some largely non-violent scenes in the early to mid 80's
(Phoenix and Connecticut) so I never got a taste for the mindless violence
or that "rush" at watching some 90 lb kid get wolfpacked by three huge fat bald men.

I never preferred shows that were 100 percent male so I usually opted
for a more inclusive scene/show.

Which is why I was relieved when Mike Bullshit, Esneider and the crew
decided to take NYHC into the 20th century with more inclusiveness, creativity
and community focus. I had long had my fill of jock garbage and stupid by choice crossover

You sound like an ABC guy. I wonder if we've met, though I missed that scene by at least a good year or so. I did know a bunch of those folks in the early to mid '90s, though, and still see some of them around on occasion.

I'm a Anthrax (both locations) /ABC NO RIO/Squat Or Rot guy. When the 2nd Anthrax folded ABC NO RIO
had been rolling for a few years and picked up the slack in the Northeast as far as booking the new scene.
It was super cool to see such a supportive DIY punk scene start in the lamest least supportive major city in the U.S. People think it's L.A....nope...NYC. At least then. I'm sure it's not fashion focused and neighborhood centric like it was for the 20 years I had to play there ( )

I've asked you this before, I think, but there is a chance we may know each other since I knew some of the original ABC folks. You can send me a PM if you like.

[Knutsen]

I think I saw a Motörhead and a Slayer shows in Berlin within 6 month around 1987.
the Motörhead show was great. Hardrock fans and Punk kids both were excited that the best band in the world would play tonight. Some pogo, a lot of headbanging and an overall peaceful happy athmosphere.

At the Slayer show lots of tough bike gang types and Hells Angels around, just waiting and hitting the occasionally, just passing by punk kid with the colored hair. A really negativ and violent athmosphere.
It was no fun. The bikers were even too cool to clap and cheer and to ask for an encore.

[Stormy]

Could give a shit if Stooges were punk or not, they still shit on most LA punk

[version sound]

Could give a shit if Stooges were punk or not, they still shit on most LA punk

That's not really a fair comparison. They are, after all, the second best band to ever exist. They shit all over even good bands by default.

[MXV]

i don't think you can blame moshing on L.A.

It's pretty well documented that it started out as the HB strut and the DC guys took it back to the East Coast (and eventually up to New York at a Black Flag show at Peppermint Lounge) when Teen Idles went out there.

I'm not saying that some other similar place wouldn't have come up with it, but that's just the facts.

The first time I saw Slayer was a different kettle of fish. I can't remember the tour, but it was after Reign In Blood. There was a big circle pit with a hefty number of nazi bone heads in attendance. That was a serious bruise fest. People were literally just beating each other. I could only take a few minutes here and there. Navigating that show was weird because of the boneheads meandering around in packs. They would scowl at the few hardcore kids in attendance. We would get lost in the crowd. That's how the night went. They opened with Reign in Blood and it was the sonic highlight of my entire show going life. Musical perfection.

Anyone see Motorhead or Iron Maiden in a small setting?

This is all so stupid to me and always has been. When I go to a show I want to watch the bands. If i wanted to beat up a bunch of people and jump on people like a bunch of monkeys I'd go play football instead. I always thought the whole slamming/moshing/stage diving/crowd surfing thing was stupid. Especially the last two, it is like "hey please notice me!".

I also don't buy into that "it comes with the territory" thing. If you hit me enough times in the back or push me enough I am going to either push back or I'm going to punch you in the face. I almost came to blows with some wasted dipshit at an X show a few years ago who took it upon himself to start pushing and bumping into the crowd around me, as well as me (while I was trying to shoot photos). He was pissing off everyone around him and wouldn't stop and after one too many hits to the back I turned around and shoved him so hard he fell down. When he got back up security ran over to grab him and they tossed him out or physically relocated him after they asked me what happened. It is one thing to dance around and have some fun but when you start invading people's space and push them when they clearly aren't interested then you are just an inconsiderate asshole. Take that shit to the football field.

I'll probably get some heat from some of you about this opinion but that's how I feel. I feel now in 2014 the whole practice of the mosh pit is so outdated and stupid. It's like the younger folks do it because they think that is what you are supposed to do and the result is a bunch of dimwits playing human bumper cars and making things miserable for the people surrounding them who are trying to watch the show without being banged into and having their drinks knocked out of their hands.

[version sound]

I always thought it was pretty stupid.

[WrEtcH]

This is all so stupid to me and always has been. When I go to a show I want to watch the bands. If i wanted to beat up a bunch of people and jump on people like a bunch of monkeys I'd go play football instead. I always thought the whole slamming/moshing/stage diving/crowd surfing thing was stupid. Especially the last two, it is like "hey please notice me!".

I also don't buy into that "it comes with the territory" thing. If you hit me enough times in the back or push me enough I am going to either push back or I'm going to punch you in the face. I almost came to blows with some wasted dipshit at an X show a few years ago who took it upon himself to start pushing and bumping into the crowd around me, as well as me (while I was trying to shoot photos). He was pissing off everyone around him and wouldn't stop and after one too many hits to the back I turned around and shoved him so hard he fell down. When he got back up security ran over to grab him and they tossed him out or physically relocated him after they asked me what happened. It is one thing to dance around and have some fun but when you start invading people's space and push them when they clearly aren't interested then you are just an inconsiderate asshole. Take that shit to the football field.

I'll probably get some heat from some of you about this opinion but that's how I feel. I feel now in 2014 the whole practice of the mosh pit is so outdated and stupid. It's like the younger folks do it because they think that is what you are supposed to do and the result is a bunch of dimwits playing human bumper cars and making things miserable for the people surrounding them who are trying to watch the show without being banged into and having their drinks knocked out of their hands.

this is the way I see it now in my old age. when I went to punk shows for the first time, it was about the circle pit where people used skank in a circle and it wasn't about shoving or pushing. if you fell down, everybody would pick you up. these days, it's all about elbows and shoving. people trying to claim their territory. nobody gives a crap, it's a laugh when dudes describe their night in the pit as opposed to how the band performed on stage.

[Stormy]

Could give a shit if Stooges were punk or not, they still shit on most LA punk

That's not really a fair comparison. They are, after all, the second best band to ever exist. They shit all over even good bands by default.

Agreed. And even though the first best band to exist starts with Black, it's NOT Black Flag.

[johnnotkathi]

Black Oak Arkansas?

[johnnotkathi]

i don't think you can blame moshing on L.A.

It's pretty well documented that it started out as the HB strut and the DC guys took it back to the East Coast (and eventually up to New York at a Black Flag show at Peppermint Lounge) when Teen Idles went out there.

I'm not saying that some other similar place wouldn't have come up with it, but that's just the facts.

The first time I saw Slayer was a different kettle of fish. I can't remember the tour, but it was after Reign In Blood. There was a big circle pit with a hefty number of nazi bone heads in attendance. That was a serious bruise fest. People were literally just beating each other. I could only take a few minutes here and there. Navigating that show was weird because of the boneheads meandering around in packs. They would scowl at the few hardcore kids in attendance. We would get lost in the crowd. That's how the night went. They opened with Reign in Blood and it was the sonic highlight of my entire show going life. Musical perfection.

Anyone see Motorhead or Iron Maiden in a small setting?

This is all so stupid to me and always has been. When I go to a show I want to watch the bands. If i wanted to beat up a bunch of people and jump on people like a bunch of monkeys I'd go play football instead. I always thought the whole slamming/moshing/stage diving/crowd surfing thing was stupid. Especially the last two, it is like "hey please notice me!".

I also don't buy into that "it comes with the territory" thing. If you hit me enough times in the back or push me enough I am going to either push back or I'm going to punch you in the face. I almost came to blows with some wasted dipshit at an X show a few years ago who took it upon himself to start pushing and bumping into the crowd around me, as well as me (while I was trying to shoot photos). He was pissing off everyone around him and wouldn't stop and after one too many hits to the back I turned around and shoved him so hard he fell down. When he got back up security ran over to grab him and they tossed him out or physically relocated him after they asked me what happened. It is one thing to dance around and have some fun but when you start invading people's space and push them when they clearly aren't interested then you are just an inconsiderate asshole. Take that shit to the football field.

I'll probably get some heat from some of you about this opinion but that's how I feel. I feel now in 2014 the whole practice of the mosh pit is so outdated and stupid. It's like the younger folks do it because they think that is what you are supposed to do and the result is a bunch of dimwits playing human bumper cars and making things miserable for the people surrounding them who are trying to watch the show without being banged into and having their drinks knocked out of their hands.

Mike, we will have to talk about this next time I see you.....

[johnnotkathi]

Stooges were not a punk band.

Probably like John S, (ie old and in the scene near the start) from 77 to 85 I saw the transformation of pogoing to the HB strut to chaos pits to circle pits then the metal esqe head banging......etc......

Early on, pogoing could get pretty rough as well. It was not always smiling kids jumping straight up and down, but it definitely was different than the HB strut. I remember reading about it (while in SF) and literally the next week saw Black Flag at the Mab and there was a blend of pogoing and the strut - seeing it the first time it was kinda scary. A bunch of kids from LA came up and were letting the others on the floor have it. Once you got in the fray, it was fun! From what I saw early on, generally people were not targeting anyone, just doing their thing and if you got too close (which happened on a packed floor) you might catch a fist or elbow. You had to keep your chin tucked in....it was more art than science however.

I never minded the stage diving and such, it was part of the process and if you were up front, that's just the way it was.

It was all pretty fun and the scenes from SF and LA were very different. Oh, reminiscing about the old days.....

Can't wait to have these discussions with some beer and BBQ back in PA with you next Summer.

Well - almost moved in?

[JGJR]

i don't think you can blame moshing on L.A.

It's pretty well documented that it started out as the HB strut and the DC guys took it back to the East Coast (and eventually up to New York at a Black Flag show at Peppermint Lounge) when Teen Idles went out there.

I'm not saying that some other similar place wouldn't have come up with it, but that's just the facts.

The first time I saw Slayer was a different kettle of fish. I can't remember the tour, but it was after Reign In Blood. There was a big circle pit with a hefty number of nazi bone heads in attendance. That was a serious bruise fest. People were literally just beating each other. I could only take a few minutes here and there. Navigating that show was weird because of the boneheads meandering around in packs. They would scowl at the few hardcore kids in attendance. We would get lost in the crowd. That's how the night went. They opened with Reign in Blood and it was the sonic highlight of my entire show going life. Musical perfection.

Anyone see Motorhead or Iron Maiden in a small setting?

This is all so stupid to me and always has been. When I go to a show I want to watch the bands. If i wanted to beat up a bunch of people and jump on people like a bunch of monkeys I'd go play football instead. I always thought the whole slamming/moshing/stage diving/crowd surfing thing was stupid. Especially the last two, it is like "hey please notice me!".

I also don't buy into that "it comes with the territory" thing. If you hit me enough times in the back or push me enough I am going to either push back or I'm going to punch you in the face. I almost came to blows with some wasted dipshit at an X show a few years ago who took it upon himself to start pushing and bumping into the crowd around me, as well as me (while I was trying to shoot photos). He was pissing off everyone around him and wouldn't stop and after one too many hits to the back I turned around and shoved him so hard he fell down. When he got back up security ran over to grab him and they tossed him out or physically relocated him after they asked me what happened. It is one thing to dance around and have some fun but when you start invading people's space and push them when they clearly aren't interested then you are just an inconsiderate asshole. Take that shit to the football field.

I'll probably get some heat from some of you about this opinion but that's how I feel. I feel now in 2014 the whole practice of the mosh pit is so outdated and stupid. It's like the younger folks do it because they think that is what you are supposed to do and the result is a bunch of dimwits playing human bumper cars and making things miserable for the people surrounding them who are trying to watch the show without being banged into and having their drinks knocked out of their hands.

Mike, we will have to talk about this next time I see you.....

I agree with mxv 100% on this.

[dave123]

i don't think you can blame moshing on L.A.

It's pretty well documented that it started out as the HB strut and the DC guys took it back to the East Coast (and eventually up to New York at a Black Flag show at Peppermint Lounge) when Teen Idles went out there.

I'm not saying that some other similar place wouldn't have come up with it, but that's just the facts.

The first time I saw Slayer was a different kettle of fish. I can't remember the tour, but it was after Reign In Blood. There was a big circle pit with a hefty number of nazi bone heads in attendance. That was a serious bruise fest. People were literally just beating each other. I could only take a few minutes here and there. Navigating that show was weird because of the boneheads meandering around in packs. They would scowl at the few hardcore kids in attendance. We would get lost in the crowd. That's how the night went. They opened with Reign in Blood and it was the sonic highlight of my entire show going life. Musical perfection.

Anyone see Motorhead or Iron Maiden in a small setting?

This is all so stupid to me and always has been. When I go to a show I want to watch the bands. If i wanted to beat up a bunch of people and jump on people like a bunch of monkeys I'd go play football instead. I always thought the whole slamming/moshing/stage diving/crowd surfing thing was stupid. Especially the last two, it is like "hey please notice me!".

I also don't buy into that "it comes with the territory" thing. If you hit me enough times in the back or push me enough I am going to either push back or I'm going to punch you in the face. I almost came to blows with some wasted dipshit at an X show a few years ago who took it upon himself to start pushing and bumping into the crowd around me, as well as me (while I was trying to shoot photos). He was pissing off everyone around him and wouldn't stop and after one too many hits to the back I turned around and shoved him so hard he fell down. When he got back up security ran over to grab him and they tossed him out or physically relocated him after they asked me what happened. It is one thing to dance around and have some fun but when you start invading people's space and push them when they clearly aren't interested then you are just an inconsiderate asshole. Take that shit to the football field.

I'll probably get some heat from some of you about this opinion but that's how I feel. I feel now in 2014 the whole practice of the mosh pit is so outdated and stupid. It's like the younger folks do it because they think that is what you are supposed to do and the result is a bunch of dimwits playing human bumper cars and making things miserable for the people surrounding them who are trying to watch the show without being banged into and having their drinks knocked out of their hands.

I hear what your saying, but I don't think you can hold all shows to the same standard. If you were at a hardcore show where dancing is part of the deal and fully welcomed and appreciated by the bands, I don't think your position would be justified. The bands want the kids to get crazy, the kids want to get crazy, you would be the only person not wanting to jump on other people's heads. Using your football analogy, you would be standing on the field and complaining about getting hit. Plus, there are usually plenty of other spaces us older folks can stand without getting jumped on. At this type of show, I don't think you would have any right to push the kid who bumped into you. You would be kind of like an elderly person walking through a skatepark and then complaining when a board hits you in the ankle.

On the other hand, I fully agree with your reaction at the X show. Moshing it up to a band like X in 2014 just seems absurd. The crowd is expected to be older and mellower than for a hardcore band. Plus, the band probably wouldn't want people jumping on anyone's heads or stage diving. It's just a totally different scene.

I guess what I am saying is that at a Bane or Gorilla Biscuits show stage dives and sing alongs are expected and the show would suck without that aspect of things (even for older people like myself who stay well out of the way of the dance floor). Whereas, an X show where everyone respected each others space would probably be more enjoyable for most involved. It's all relative.

[johnnotkathi]

Agree 100% w/Dave. Please don't tell me you're "the guy" who goes to a show, stands at the edge of the pit and gets pissed off when people bump/run into him. Similarly, if you are pressed up against the stage and get mad about stage divers, that (to me at least) does go with the territory.....

[version sound]

Agree 100% w/Dave. Please don't tell me you're "the guy" who goes to a show, stands at the edge of the pit and gets pissed off when people bump/run into him. Similarly, if you are pressed up against the stage and get mad about stage divers, that (to me at least) does go with the territory.....

I've pretty much always kept the fuck away from the pit since getting trampled in the '80s. The only time I was near the front at a show whrere a pit started that I was surprised by was the Dag Nasty reunion. That place was packed with middle aged dudes and there was not a "LET'S SLAM" vibe in the air at all before some jackasses decided there needed to be a pit. I just got the fuck out. I thought that was kind of bullshit. There were like 5 guys who wanted to slam out of a crowd of hundreds.