Kickstarter

Re: Kickstarter

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:07 am

Pffft wrote:So I'm confused.. who's entitled? Kids or older musicians? Or everyone? Or maybe the game has changed and you can't get tour support from cargo records and can't really manage to drive to every little crappy town to flog the album you paid to press (that someone ripped and put up on their blog for free anyway)... I also used to book a venue and really feel empathy for bands trying to make it now. There is such a crush of bands out there and traditional promotions no longer really work. You can't just print a tin of flyers and put them in the local record store and let excitement build that way.



i am saying older guys seem to be entitled. if you put out a great record 30 years ago, don't expect me to pay for you new record. as with sam, i think a number of diff't things are being debated here. if a band was like, this record is all set to go, we recorded it and just need X amount to get it pressed, that is one thing, but 90 percent of the kickstarters i see are to fund recording time, practice time, the cost of making the record, etc or just for plain old touring money. i don't think fans should have to foot the bill for that.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Pffft » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:08 am

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Re: Kickstarter

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:08 am

Pffft wrote:It's funny how entitled you sound making those arguments



you want to have a real conversation or just be a fucking asshole? plus, i can be as entitled as i want to when a band is asking me for my money, it's that simple.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Pffft » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:11 am

And someone earlier said kids are the entitled ones.

It's an industry in flux. This is a very diy method of financing for a band.. probably way more so than most of the bands you consider diy from back in the day.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Pffft » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:12 am

yourenotevil wrote:
Pffft wrote:It's funny how entitled you sound making those arguments



you want to have a real conversation or just be a fucking asshole? plus, i can be as entitled as i want to when a band is asking me for my money, it's that simple.

Then don't give them your money and keep your opinions to yourself. It's pretty simple.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Pffft » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:12 am

Oh and
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:13 am

Pffft wrote:And someone earlier said kids are the entitled ones.

It's an industry in flux. This is a very diy method of financing for a band.. probably way more so than most of the bands you consider diy from back in the day.



are you talking about pressing a record or paying for touring costs? those are different things in my mind. i buy records, i pay to see bands play and i buy merch. i download stuff for free, but if i like it, i buy it. i don't have to foot the bill for anything else a band does. things might be in flux, but bands have to think of something else if they want fans to pay for everything.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:14 am

Pffft wrote:
yourenotevil wrote:
Pffft wrote:It's funny how entitled you sound making those arguments



you want to have a real conversation or just be a fucking asshole? plus, i can be as entitled as i want to when a band is asking me for my money, it's that simple.

Then don't give them your money and keep your opinions to yourself. It's pretty simple.



it's a msgboard and this is the topic.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby SamDBL » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:20 am

yourenotevil wrote:again, i don't think you're getting what i am saying. i never used the phrase "sell out." i brought up SOIA, who actually got shit for being on a major. i am saying, either you are a full time or you are not. if you are not, you can't expect the reap the benefits of said touring band-a tour bus, hotel rooms, nice meals, etc.


What does this have to do with kickstarter? Are bands putting up campaigns for hotel rooms and nice meals?


i have seen plenty of people(punk and not) asking for funds to do this. one band wanted 50k to tour. i don't think a fan should have to pay that. i don't think a fan should have to pay for a recording, studio time, practice time or the actual cost of what it takes to make a record(which is what welly was pretty much saying).


That's EXACTLY who pays for it, and always has. Do you think money from labels and bands just pops out of thin air? Bands either make money to pay for records from playing shows (which fans pay for) or labels make the money from other record sales (which fans pay for). I'm really interested to hear who you think has been paying for records all along.

either you do it yourself, or you don't.


Which is what makes platforms like Kickstarter so great. I'd think you'd be all over it.


i rarely see a band saying they have recorded and are asking for the money to press the record. even then, i wouldn't give them money. i don't want to wait a year or two to get my record, if ever, sorry.


Man, I'll bet every Black Flag and Verbal Abuse release that ever came out was right on fucking time with no delays, ever.

yeah, labels will still be willing to put up the cost of what it takes to record or press your record(sometimes it is one or the other) if you TOUR. that is how it's always been.


That's barely even true at all anymore. Most labels will 'help' pay for the manufacture of a record and then take some of your tshirt money and whatever else to make up for their losses. But whatever. I'm glad to hear that you're so gung ho about labels taking the reigns of music being released now, as opposed to artists doing it themselves. Too bad we collectively spent the last 35 or so years destroying them all.

if you don't want to do a full tour, don't expect a label to press your lp and don't expect your fans to pay for it either. i don't think that is illogical at all.


It's a logical conclusion that that is what'll happen. However, maybe they will if you're an established band. I know several bands that don't tour much that still sell an ok amount of records. By your logic, they should just go fuck themselves and stop putting out music because 'that's what oughta happen and that's what they deserve!'. You keep bringing up what a label will or won't do. A label is not part of this equation. Just fans and an artist. An artist has every right to ask his fans if they want him/her to put out another record. Why the fuck are you so up in arms about that?

i can name you plenty of bands and labels who press records for fair prices and don't ask for handouts.


Since asking for handouts = not allowing for presales of a product, ok. That's great that you know a bunch of bands and labels that don't offer presales, I guess (?)

i agree with welly, i think people have a sense of entitlement now instead of being willing to put in the leg work themselves.


I think YOU have the sense of entitlement. Seriously. As a fan, you expect everything to be done for you at the expense of the band and/or a label and then handed to you on a silver platter at what you consider to be a fair price (or free) in a timely fashion, or else the whole thing should just cease to exist because you simply deserve (and will accept) no less!
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Pffft » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:22 am

I think what you're missing is fans have always paid for everything but with gatekeepers in the way that have pretty much been eliminated so now people are finding a way to do it in a new paradigm. People don't wanna pay more for shows and the general music fan probably has ten illegally downloaded album for every one they've purchased. The internet is full of blogs with free copies of albums in print. Recording costs are cheaper but Jesus they aren't free. We have spent a grand or do recording an e.p. and not in a bigger studio but in a basement one. Their in another grand at least is you wanna press anything (that frankly no one buys except for vinyl) and it's a fools errand. If a band feels they have the following to offset some of those losses and still deliver a good enough product to grow that following be it recording costs or tour support then more fucking power to them. It really didn't get more diy than not having to answer to anyone but your audience.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby MXV » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:23 am

I would imagine SOIA got more shit for being a lousy band than for signing to a major label.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:26 am

to sam-i have to go but i can't address all of your points, but i will later. for now, i never said i don't expect to pay for shows or records, and yes, i have seen more than one band asking for just money so they could tour, and nothing else. it was for around 50k. i can't remember who it was though. a label doing a presale and a band doing it are two different things in my eyes. a label already usually has the record pressed and the money you are giving it is going to funding the next project. i have never seen a band saying this is ready to go to the plant, we just need to meet a goal. they want the money to pay for everything and then press it. that is not the same thing.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Welly » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:37 am

Christ, this went downhill.

Arguments stated.

Kickstarter still exists.

So does everything else.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby SamDBL » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:41 am

yourenotevil wrote:yes, i have seen more than one band asking for just money so they could tour, and nothing else. it was for around 50k. i can't remember who it was though.


That still doesn't really matter. Labels are in the shitter now. Tour support is a joke. So I see nothing wrong with a band approaching their fanbase and saying "Hey, who wants me to tour? If so, this is part of my fee". 50k sounds like a lot, but I have no idea what the band was, where the tour was supposed to be (where they flying to thailand?), or how long, etc. It really doesn't matter. There's nothing wrong with approaching whatever fanbase you have to see if there's an interest in buying something from you (record OR tour). Not a handout.
I like how you're painting every band on kickstarter as some washed up Justin Timberlake gouging their fans by holding them at gunpoint for some ridiculous amount of money. Because that's certainly what most kickstarer campaigns from bands amount to. :roll: Nice propaganda work there.

a label doing a presale and a band doing it are two different things in my eyes. a label already usually has the record pressed and the money you are giving it is going to funding the next project. i have never seen a band saying this is ready to go to the plant, we just need to meet a goal. they want the money to pay for everything and then press it. that is not the same thing.


So then to you it's all about time frame and financial risk to the artist involved? So if an artist got the record to you in whatever you concieve to be a quick time, and they had risked all of their money on guessing whether you'd actually buy it instead of simply asking you 'will you buy this' beforehand, then the whole system is totally stellar? I just want you to clear that up for me. Because to me it just sounds like a bunch of shitty arguments you're making because you're not into the idea of bands having a 'undeserved' dedicated fanbase that would gladly buy their next record. The injustice of it all!
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Knutsen » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:42 am

Pffft wrote:I think what you're missing is fans have always paid for everything but with gatekeepers in the way that have pretty much been eliminated so now people are finding a way to do it in a new paradigm. People don't wanna pay more for shows and the general music fan probably has ten illegally downloaded album for every one they've purchased. The internet is full of blogs with free copies of albums in print. Recording costs are cheaper but Jesus they aren't free. We have spent a grand or do recording an e.p. and not in a bigger studio but in a basement one. Their in another grand at least is you wanna press anything (that frankly no one buys except for vinyl) and it's a fools errand. If a band feels they have the following to offset some of those losses and still deliver a good enough product to grow that following be it recording costs or tour support then more fucking power to them. It really didn't get more diy than not having to answer to anyone but your audience.


Doesnt sound like a good move to be in a band if the general young music fan is more interested in free down loads from irresponsible blogs and dont wanna pay more for shows.
I am not willing risk my money in a kickstarter for a band that does not want to risk their own money to bring themselves further.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Pffft » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:48 am

Knutsen wrote:
Pffft wrote:I think what you're missing is fans have always paid for everything but with gatekeepers in the way that have pretty much been eliminated so now people are finding a way to do it in a new paradigm. People don't wanna pay more for shows and the general music fan probably has ten illegally downloaded album for every one they've purchased. The internet is full of blogs with free copies of albums in print. Recording costs are cheaper but Jesus they aren't free. We have spent a grand or do recording an e.p. and not in a bigger studio but in a basement one. Their in another grand at least is you wanna press anything (that frankly no one buys except for vinyl) and it's a fools errand. If a band feels they have the following to offset some of those losses and still deliver a good enough product to grow that following be it recording costs or tour support then more fucking power to them. It really didn't get more diy than not having to answer to anyone but your audience.


Doesnt sound like a good move to be in a band if the general young music fan is more interested in free down loads from irresponsible blogs and dont wanna pay more for shows.
I am not willing risk my money in a kickstarter for a band that does not want to risk their own money to bring themselves further.

But they do risk their own money at every turn. From equipment to maybe not taking that better job because it won't allow them the time to pursue music. To whatever it took to build enough of an audience to make crowd sourcing a viable option.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Knutsen » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:49 am

http://www.neubauten.org/supporters-english

This is another way, which sounds very cool:

SUPPORTER PROJECT NEUBAUTEN.ORG
Einstürzende Neubauten were the first band which successfully used the Internet productively to gather and concentrate activities of their fans from around the world. Einstürzende Neubauten launched their official website neubauten.org in 2002, and made it the center of their musical activities. Entire albums are financed by registered Supporters via subscription.

The principle was simple: their Supporters bought the next Einstürzende Neubauten album before it was recorded. With this funding in hand the band had time to work in peace rather than wasting time and energy in endless discussions with record companies about marketing and "brand identity" - irksome intrusions into the artistic process! In return Supporters world-wide have exclusive access to Einstürzende Neubauten's internal working processes.

Supporters were able to watch the recording sessions via web-cam for the first two Supporter Albums (2002/2005) and were also called upon by the band members in direct chat discussions to comment on the working process and influence it. In the same way, the Musterhaus series (a collection of experimental albums) is being marketed solely on the website.

One high point of the supporter-project was the highly symbolic 4th of November 2004 show at Palast der Republik, the former headquarter of the power apparatus of the fallen GDR which was in the process of being demolished. This impressive and unique performance (featuring the 100-person Supporter choir on Grundstück) was recorded and filmed for release as the Grundstück CD and DVD of the same title (2005) as well as on the Palast der Republik DVD (2006).

The project ended in 2007 with a supporter edition of the album Alles Wieder Offen and a supporter DVD 3 Jewels.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Pffft » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:57 am

I don't see how that's different than a kick starter with bonus gifts for donating more.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby SamDBL » Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:02 am

Knutsen wrote:I am not willing risk my money in a kickstarter for a band that does not want to risk their own money to bring themselves further.


In theory, there isn't a risk. You're simply buying something. For example, I have custom guitars made for me sometimes. The luthier and I discuss what I want, he breaks downs costs and gives me a total. I usually pay for most, or all of it before it's made. I don't consider myself giving the luthier a fucking handout.
A band puts up their projected expenses and delivery date. If you like the band and want whatever they're selling, you buy it. It's very simple.
I would understand if someone were so put off by the fact that the delivery dates are sometimes way off, or if you can't trace where the money is specifically spent. But I think those things can be worked out (ie. enforced away) later on down the line. I don't think any of that has any bearing on the fact that putting in on one of these things isn't giving someone a handout. That's just something convenient to tell yourself because you can't be bothered to do it. Which is totally fine.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby SamDBL » Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:05 am

Knutsen wrote:http://www.neubauten.org/supporters-english

This is another way, which sounds very cool:

SUPPORTER PROJECT NEUBAUTEN.ORG
Einstürzende Neubauten were the first band which successfully used the Internet productively to gather and concentrate activities of their fans from around the world. Einstürzende Neubauten launched their official website neubauten.org in 2002, and made it the center of their musical activities. Entire albums are financed by registered Supporters via subscription.

The principle was simple: their Supporters bought the next Einstürzende Neubauten album before it was recorded. With this funding in hand the band had time to work in peace rather than wasting time and energy in endless discussions with record companies about marketing and "brand identity" - irksome intrusions into the artistic process! In return Supporters world-wide have exclusive access to Einstürzende Neubauten's internal working processes.

Supporters were able to watch the recording sessions via web-cam for the first two Supporter Albums (2002/2005) and were also called upon by the band members in direct chat discussions to comment on the working process and influence it. In the same way, the Musterhaus series (a collection of experimental albums) is being marketed solely on the website.

One high point of the supporter-project was the highly symbolic 4th of November 2004 show at Palast der Republik, the former headquarter of the power apparatus of the fallen GDR which was in the process of being demolished. This impressive and unique performance (featuring the 100-person Supporter choir on Grundstück) was recorded and filmed for release as the Grundstück CD and DVD of the same title (2005) as well as on the Palast der Republik DVD (2006).

The project ended in 2007 with a supporter edition of the album Alles Wieder Offen and a supporter DVD 3 Jewels.


This is very cool, and exactly the direction that something like Kickstarter is headed, imo. Total band/fan direct interaction and involvement without labels dictating anything. It's what we've all wanted all along. But of course people are going to continue to complain.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Pffft » Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:09 am

I'm not sure how most bands would feel about having thousands critique a product before it's really ready to hit their ears. Having a thousand individual producers sounds like a nightmare.. it can be hard enough just getting 5 or 6 people to finally agree that a recording is good and done.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby pedro » Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:37 am

Great news! I got my burrito!
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby gregpolard » Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:47 am

pedro wrote:Great news! I got my burrito!


Did you raise enough money to get it enchilada style?
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby MXV » Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:08 pm

SamDBL wrote:
Knutsen wrote:http://www.neubauten.org/supporters-english

This is another way, which sounds very cool:

SUPPORTER PROJECT NEUBAUTEN.ORG
Einstürzende Neubauten were the first band which successfully used the Internet productively to gather and concentrate activities of their fans from around the world. Einstürzende Neubauten launched their official website neubauten.org in 2002, and made it the center of their musical activities. Entire albums are financed by registered Supporters via subscription.

The principle was simple: their Supporters bought the next Einstürzende Neubauten album before it was recorded. With this funding in hand the band had time to work in peace rather than wasting time and energy in endless discussions with record companies about marketing and "brand identity" - irksome intrusions into the artistic process! In return Supporters world-wide have exclusive access to Einstürzende Neubauten's internal working processes.

Supporters were able to watch the recording sessions via web-cam for the first two Supporter Albums (2002/2005) and were also called upon by the band members in direct chat discussions to comment on the working process and influence it. In the same way, the Musterhaus series (a collection of experimental albums) is being marketed solely on the website.

One high point of the supporter-project was the highly symbolic 4th of November 2004 show at Palast der Republik, the former headquarter of the power apparatus of the fallen GDR which was in the process of being demolished. This impressive and unique performance (featuring the 100-person Supporter choir on Grundstück) was recorded and filmed for release as the Grundstück CD and DVD of the same title (2005) as well as on the Palast der Republik DVD (2006).

The project ended in 2007 with a supporter edition of the album Alles Wieder Offen and a supporter DVD 3 Jewels.


This is very cool, and exactly the direction that something like Kickstarter is headed, imo. Total band/fan direct interaction and involvement without labels dictating anything. It's what we've all wanted all along. But of course people are going to continue to complain.


The unfortunate part of the above scenario is that by the time they started doing this, Neubauten was washed up and putting out boring folk records and in no way resembled the great band they once were. This whole concept was likely out of necessity as if I was a label I'd have dropped them the minute they turned in the piece of shit that was "Silence is Sexy". Too many key members left after Tabula Rasa and what was left went off in an entirely different direction that bares no resemblance to the once legendary band they once were aside from the singer's voice.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:41 pm

"What does this have to do with kickstarter? Are bands putting up campaigns for hotel rooms and nice meals?"

yes, i have seen this, and also addressed this.



"That's EXACTLY who pays for it, and always has. Do you think money from labels and bands just pops out of thin air? Bands either make money to pay for records from playing shows (which fans pay for) or labels make the money from other record sales (which fans pay for). I'm really interested to hear who you think has been paying for records all along."

no shit, but like i said for bands i like, i buy the records, see them when they tour, and usually i buy some merch. if you asking me to foot the bill for anything else, you are nuts. if you can't get enough on your end to get a record out of that or some studio time, think about firing your manager and booking shows yourself.



"Which is what makes platforms like Kickstarter so great. I'd think you'd be all over it."


not if you are asking a fan to pay for what is essentially your hobby. like i said, if you are not a full time band, this is what your band essentially is, and i am not going to pay for it.





"Man, I'll bet every Black Flag and Verbal Abuse release that ever came out was right on fucking time with no delays, ever. "


moot point, because those bands were never asking for my money up front. find me a band, esp a hc one before 2010 that was asking for anything like a band is asking for today.






"That's barely even true at all anymore. Most labels will 'help' pay for the manufacture of a record and then take some of your tshirt money and whatever else to make up for their losses. But whatever. I'm glad to hear that you're so gung ho about labels taking the reigns of music being released now, as opposed to artists doing it themselves. Too bad we collectively spent the last 35 or so years destroying them all."

any small label will either pay to press your record, or pay to have it recorded, not necessarily both. if a label is going to fuck you in the ass by taking out your shirt sales to recoup other costs, you should have had a laywer look at your contract. maybe a major label would do that, but not a small independent label.



if you don't want to do a full tour, don't expect a label to press your lp and don't expect your fans to pay for it either. i don't think that is illogical at all.


"It's a logical conclusion that that is what'll happen. However, maybe they will if you're an established band. I know several bands that don't tour much that still sell an ok amount of records. By your logic, they should just go fuck themselves and stop putting out music because 'that's what oughta happen and that's what they deserve!'. You keep bringing up what a label will or won't do. A label is not part of this equation. Just fans and an artist. An artist has every right to ask his fans if they want him/her to put out another record. Why the fuck are you so up in arms about that?"

it's fine if bands don't tour, but don't expect to sell the amount of records like a band that tours the world will. that is just illogical. like i said, if your band is your hobby, don't expect me to pay for it. if your record is good enough, people will buy it and that can fund the next one. what is so hard about just putting it out on your own, even if you take a loss? i guess bands are afraid to find out no one gives a shit about them or only wants to hear the early stuff. maybe that is a lot for a musician to accept, i dunno.

i can name you plenty of bands and labels who press records for fair prices and don't ask for handouts.


Since asking for handouts = not allowing for presales of a product, ok. That's great that you know a bunch of bands and labels that don't offer presales, I guess (?)


a presale from a label is someone that is already established. a389, dishcord,revelation records, painkiller records, thorp, b9, even taang have never asked their fanbase to give them money unless they were getting a record right away. having a kickstarter to fund a record that needs to be recorded is not a presale. it might get made two years down the line, if at all. i get something from a label in a few months, tops. big difference.



i agree with welly, i think people have a sense of entitlement now instead of being willing to put in the leg work themselves.


"I think YOU have the sense of entitlement. Seriously. As a fan, you expect everything to be done for you at the expense of the band and/or a label and then handed to you on a silver platter at what you consider to be a fair price (or free) in a timely fashion, or else the whole thing should just cease to exist because you simply deserve (and will accept) no less!"

i never said i wouldn't pay. if anything, it is the two musicians in this thread acting entitled and shocked that their fans don't want to foot the bill for them. you can blame the internet, blogs and lack of labels all you want, it doesn't mean fans should have to pay bands to tour and record. that is whack.


i am too lazy to put in all of the quotes stuff, so i hope it doesn't end up being too hard to follow.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:48 pm

SamDBL wrote:
yourenotevil wrote:yes, i have seen more than one band asking for just money so they could tour, and nothing else. it was for around 50k. i can't remember who it was though.


That still doesn't really matter. Labels are in the shitter now. Tour support is a joke. So I see nothing wrong with a band approaching their fanbase and saying "Hey, who wants me to tour? If so, this is part of my fee". 50k sounds like a lot, but I have no idea what the band was, where the tour was supposed to be (where they flying to thailand?), or how long, etc. It really doesn't matter. There's nothing wrong with approaching whatever fanbase you have to see if there's an interest in buying something from you (record OR tour). Not a handout.
I like how you're painting every band on kickstarter as some washed up Justin Timberlake gouging their fans by holding them at gunpoint for some ridiculous amount of money. Because that's certainly what most kickstarer campaigns from bands amount to. :roll: Nice propaganda work there.

a label doing a presale and a band doing it are two different things in my eyes. a label already usually has the record pressed and the money you are giving it is going to funding the next project. i have never seen a band saying this is ready to go to the plant, we just need to meet a goal. they want the money to pay for everything and then press it. that is not the same thing.


So then to you it's all about time frame and financial risk to the artist involved? So if an artist got the record to you in whatever you concieve to be a quick time, and they had risked all of their money on guessing whether you'd actually buy it instead of simply asking you 'will you buy this' beforehand, then the whole system is totally stellar? I just want you to clear that up for me. Because to me it just sounds like a bunch of shitty arguments you're making because you're not into the idea of bands having a 'undeserved' dedicated fanbase that would gladly buy their next record. The injustice of it all!



to me, it's a matter of pride. i was planning on writing a book about hc bands. no one was going to pay me for my time, and even if it got published i certainly wouldn't make any money off of it. if i ever finish it, i would make a pdf of a few chapters and send it to publishers. i would never ask the public for 30k so i could get my book published. i would take the same approach with a record or touring if i was in a band. clearly, you think differently.

for your second question, i already addressed it, but paying for a record that is not even recorded is not a pre sale to me. i wouldn't pay a band for anything like that. bands take some risk releasing an album, as do authors who write books. sometimes the end product sucks, and no one buys it. kickstarter is essentially a way for those people to get their work out to the public without having their feelings hurt when they realize no wanted it in the first place. all art is not good, and people shouldn't have to buy something on faith, and that is what KS is to me.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:09 pm

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/138 ... -june-18th

here's a band asking for help with to pay for their music videos, and stuff for their tour bus, and to pay off the guy to do the artwork for their album, and to help hire a PR firm. maybe you think a fan should pay for all of this, but i don't. they asked for 15k and got almost 50k, and met their goal the first day, yet they still took the 43k and made no announcements about how they would spend the extra money. why do i hate kickstarter? exactly because of shit like this. where did that extra money go?
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby SamDBL » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:12 pm

yourenotevil wrote:to me, it's a matter of pride. i was planning on writing a book about hc bands. no one was going to pay me for my time, and even if it got published i certainly wouldn't make any money off of it. if i ever finish it, i would make a pdf of a few chapters and send it to publishers. i would never ask the public for 30k so i could get my book published.


That's obviously your perogative. But there would be no ethical/moral/whatever with you starting a campaign and saying "Hey, here's this book I want to do. If anyone wants to buy it, I could sure use some advance orders to get it made". = Not a handout.

for your second question, i already addressed it, but paying for a record that is not even recorded is not a pre sale to me.


But it is. Plain and simple.

i wouldn't pay a band for anything like that.


You've made this pretty clear.

bands take some risk releasing an album, as do authors who write books. sometimes the end product sucks, and no one buys it. kickstarter is essentially a way for those people to get their work out to the public without having their feelings hurt when they realize no wanted it in the first place. all art is not good, and people shouldn't have to buy something on faith, and that is what KS is to me.


So wait... on top of redefining what a pre-order or presale is, you're now insinuating that every person that puts up a kickstarter campaign gets their goals met by a bunch of people that feel sorry for them? Wtf? If your kickstarter succeeds, it's typically because people want to purchase what you're selling. It's not a bunch of strangers tossing money at various unfamiliar campaigns to see dreams fulfilled. Give me a fucking break. If a band is taking preorders on something that is to be manufactured in the future, it's a fucking preorder. It doesn't matter what you're opinion as to what you think that is code for. That's what it is.
Your obsession with an artist having to suffer to the point that he can't even take existing preorders on his product is ludicrious. Sorry. It's an advance that would come out of sales that would inarguably happen the moment the thing is released, anyway. Businesses do it all the fucking time. Quit trying to redefine that as someone begging for money.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby SamDBL » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:19 pm

yourenotevil wrote:http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1388866423/crash-kings-dark-of-the-daylight-june-18th

here's a band asking for help with to pay for their music videos, and stuff for their tour bus, and to pay off the guy to do the artwork for their album, and to help hire a PR firm. maybe you think a fan should pay for all of this, but i don't. they asked for 15k and got almost 50k, and met their goal the first day, yet they still took the 43k and made no announcements about how they would spend the extra money. why do i hate kickstarter? exactly because of shit like this. where did that extra money go?


That seems funny to me, sure. It also seems funny that you think fans don't pay for this stuff, anyway. Lastly, if this band have developed enough crazy fans that will fork over money and they meet their goal, then it's totally legite and well within the bands rights to ask them to no matter how extravagent you might think they are.
I think you're dishonestly moving the target here, though. Yes, we can all dig up what we consider to be silly or overboard campaigns. We all know that the majority of bands that have campaigns are for more realistic things like getting a record made. I'm not going to sit here and argue about every frivolous campaign you manage to dig up. Let's just stay on topic: A band making a record and taking payments from their fans to do so is a preorder. You are suddenly offended by preorders by punk bands.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:28 pm

SamDBL wrote:
yourenotevil wrote:http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1388866423/crash-kings-dark-of-the-daylight-june-18th

here's a band asking for help with to pay for their music videos, and stuff for their tour bus, and to pay off the guy to do the artwork for their album, and to help hire a PR firm. maybe you think a fan should pay for all of this, but i don't. they asked for 15k and got almost 50k, and met their goal the first day, yet they still took the 43k and made no announcements about how they would spend the extra money. why do i hate kickstarter? exactly because of shit like this. where did that extra money go?


That seems funny to me, sure. It also seems funny that you think fans don't pay for this stuff, anyway. Lastly, if this band have developed enough crazy fans that will fork over money and they meet their goal, then it's totally legite and well within the bands rights to ask them to no matter how extravagent you might think they are.
I think you're dishonestly moving the target here, though. Yes, we can all dig up what we consider to be silly or overboard campaigns. We all know that the majority of bands that have campaigns are for more realistic things like getting a record made. I'm not going to sit here and argue about every frivolous campaign you manage to dig up. Let's just stay on topic: A band making a record and taking payments from their fans to do so is a preorder. You are suddenly offended by preorders by punk bands.



this is mostly what i see bands asking for when they hit up people for money. i have never seen a band saying we just need to record and put the record out, or if they were, they are asking for an inflated amount. like i mentioned, i have seen people asking for money to press records(like a guy who wanted to repress a double lp comp from the 90s), but he was asking for way more than it cost to do so. if someone broke down what their expenses needed to be, i would at least respect that. i think if you meet your stated goal, the campaign should automatically shut down, unless it was something for charity that essentially was looking for the most it could get.

i also know fans pay for this stuff, but like i said three times, a band gets that out of the records they sell, the tickets they sell, and the merch they sell. i am not going to pay for anything beyond that, sorry pal.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:41 pm

"That's obviously your perogative. But there would be no ethical/moral/whatever with you starting a campaign and saying "Hey, here's this book I want to do. If anyone wants to buy it, I could sure use some advance orders to get it made". = Not a handout. "

It would only be fair if I had the book set and ready to go. Even then, I still wouldn't do it.

for your second question, i already addressed it, but paying for a record that is not even recorded is not a pre sale to me.


"But it is. Plain and simple."


not really, i don't know how many times i have to explain this. there is no point in debating it anymore.

i wouldn't pay a band for anything like that.


You've made this pretty clear.

bands take some risk releasing an album, as do authors who write books. sometimes the end product sucks, and no one buys it. kickstarter is essentially a way for those people to get their work out to the public without having their feelings hurt when they realize no wanted it in the first place. all art is not good, and people shouldn't have to buy something on faith, and that is what KS is to me.


So wait... on top of redefining what a pre-order or presale is, you're now insinuating that every person that puts up a kickstarter campaign gets their goals met by a bunch of people that feel sorry for them? Wtf? If your kickstarter succeeds, it's typically because people want to purchase what you're selling. It's not a bunch of strangers tossing money at various unfamiliar campaigns to see dreams fulfilled. Give me a fucking break. If a band is taking preorders on something that is to be manufactured in the future, it's a fucking preorder. It doesn't matter what you're opinion as to what you think that is code for. That's what it is.
Your obsession with an artist having to suffer to the point that he can't even take existing preorders on his product is ludicrious. Sorry. It's an advance that would come out of sales that would inarguably happen the moment the thing is released, anyway. Businesses do it all the fucking time. Quit trying to redefine that as someone begging for money.[/quote]

i am not the one talking about the artist suffering, that was welly. you are the only person i have ever met who thinks a pre order is the same thing as giving some money to a project that could be completed one or two years down the line, or never at all. maybe the band breaks up, maybe the album never gets done. if the goal gets met, i don't get my money back if something like that happens. a pre sale is a label hitting me up for my 5 or 6 dollars and saying the record is at the plant or almost there and i am getting a chance to get it before the rest of the public and/or a special edition of it.

as for feelings hurt, it seems like a nice way to have your album guaranteed to be bought and paid for before i ever get a chance to listen to it, and a good way to avoid any criticism of your art. that is more of what i am geting at.doesn't a fan have the right to hear an album before they buy it? just because I like DBL, i should assume you guys are never going to put out a shitty album and buy everything sight unseen? should i buy a book/donate before i ever get a chance to read a chapter of it first? should i donate money to some documentary that might be no good? you see what i am getting at here.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby xxxHunterxxx » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:03 pm

I gave to the Dance of Days campaign because:

1) It gave me a right of first refusal for tickets to both nights of the Salad Days benefit shows at the Black Cat;
2) It came with a GI "Complete History Volume II" cd and some other stuff;
3) I think it'll be a cool movie; and
4) Scott Crawford is a good dude

I think they've pushed back the deadline for release a couple of times but they do a good job keeping people updated about what's going on. Communication seems to be the key in these things. I think people are pretty understanding about delays as long as there's not radio silence coming from the recipient of their hard-earned cash. Does Kickstarter take any sort action if the "artist" stiffs the donors? If not, that's pretty lame.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:06 pm

Pffft wrote:The godfather of diy ethos


http://m.rollingstone.com/?redirurl=/mu ... l-20130731



moot point, he is essentially saying you are stupid if you pay that much for the shirt. plus, he never sold shirts anyway, jeff nelson did. i don't expect him to start taking shirt orders at dischord for something he never had an interest in anyway. he's making the 28 bucks, UO is.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby SamDBL » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:21 pm

yourenotevil wrote:
this is mostly what i see bands asking for when they hit up people for money. i have never seen a band saying we just need to record and put the record out, or if they were, they are asking for an inflated amount. like i mentioned, i have seen people asking for money to press records(like a guy who wanted to repress a double lp comp from the 90s), but he was asking for way more than it cost to do so. if someone broke down what their expenses needed to be, i would at least respect that. i think if you meet your stated goal, the campaign should automatically shut down, unless it was something for charity that essentially was looking for the most it could get.


Then we are seeing different things. Granted, I don't hound the kickstarter sight. Of the four or five campaigns that've come into my radar, all of them except one have been for recorded material being released. I think most or all of them broke down costs. So if you'll concede that a band taking preorders for recorded material through kickstarter isn't asking for an undeserved handout, I'll drop it rather than argue the minutia of every kickstarter campaign you feel like digging up (though my general argument stands... if you have people that will pay you for something that you're selling, there's nothing wrong with that and it does not constitute a handout). But of course, you won't do that.


i also know fans pay for this stuff, but like i said three times, a band gets that out of the records they sell, the tickets they sell, and the merch they sell. i am not going to pay for anything beyond that, sorry pal.


But we're talking exactly about bands selling records. You won't pay them for that, either. Because you have some weird ethical hang up about a band conducting a pre-order. No need to apologize to me. I'm glad you're not forced to take part in this thing you think everyone else is.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby SamDBL » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:37 pm

yourenotevil wrote:not really, i don't know how many times i have to explain this. there is no point in debating it anymore.


You haven't explained it to any satisfaction, though. Like, at all.

i am not the one talking about the artist suffering, that was welly. you are the only person i have ever met who thinks a pre order is the same thing as giving some money to a project that could be completed one or two years down the line, or never at all. maybe the band breaks up, maybe the album never gets done. if the goal gets met, i don't get my money back if something like that happens. a pre sale is a label hitting me up for my 5 or 6 dollars and saying the record is at the plant or almost there and i am getting a chance to get it before the rest of the public and/or a special edition of it.


Like I said, the timing thing of these products being delivered late is a failure of this system and the poor organization of the artists. I am sure that it'll be addressed in the future as the system gets streamlined. I totally understand if someone's sole reason for not being involved in this sort of thing is the lack of dependability and accountability of the people receiving funds.
The problem I have is that you're arguing that in theory, no matter how quickly this thing is delivered (on time or not), a band taking preorders for something before it's sent to the plant (or whatever) is tenemount to a band pathetically asking for a handout and pulling one over on their sucker fans. The point is, and has always been, that this is money the fans would be giving the artists anyway. You seem to be asserting that unless the artist takes on all the financial burden up front and by themselves, they are conning someone. I take that to mean that you just simply want the artist to eat shit whenever possible.

as for feelings hurt, it seems like a nice way to have your album guaranteed to be bought and paid for before i ever get a chance to listen to it, and a good way to avoid any criticism of your art. that is more of what i am geting at.doesn't a fan have the right to hear an album before they buy it? just because I like DBL, i should assume you guys are never going to put out a shitty album and buy everything sight unseen? should i buy a book/donate before i ever get a chance to read a chapter of it first? should i donate money to some documentary that might be no good? you see what i am getting at here.


You just keep moving that target. Now, all of the sudden, we're talking about a lack of preview being the big problem? For one thing, some of these campaigns have had demos to preview of what the record will consist of. No, I don't think it's the inherent right of every music listener to preview an entire album before buying, especially in the digital age. But that's a seperate debate. Lastly, this is just amazing. Now we're implying that on top of forcing people to pay for something they never intend to make for an unreasonable price, they're also unfairly protecting their release from critique, etc? Man, you have a reeeeeally low opinion of musicians.

Anyway, to go a little further, would you contribute to a kickstarter if:
a) it was for recorded material that you knew would be done at the specified time
b) you could preview the whole thing before contributing
c) the band broke down the costs

I already know the answer, but I want to hear it from you.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby SamDBL » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:55 pm

yourenotevil wrote:no shit, but like i said for bands i like, i buy the records, see them when they tour, and usually i buy some merch. if you asking me to foot the bill for anything else, you are nuts. if you can't get enough on your end to get a record out of that or some studio time, think about firing your manager and booking shows yourself.


Jesus christ. WE'RE DISCUSSING BUYING THE RECORD FROM THE BAND IN ADVANCE.



not if you are asking a fan to pay for what is essentially your hobby. like i said, if you are not a full time band, this is what your band essentially is, and i am not going to pay for it.


No one is making you. If you're asking a fan to pay for your hobby and they gladly do it because you've developed that sort of fan following and would buy a record from you anyhow, is it really still a hobby?



moot point, because those bands were never asking for my money up front. find me a band, esp a hc one before 2010 that was asking for anything like a band is asking for today.


As pffft pointed out, they would have if it had been available. There's nothing wrong with an advance payment on something that is delivered as promised.


any small label will either pay to press your record, or pay to have it recorded, not necessarily both. if a label is going to fuck you in the ass by taking out your shirt sales to recoup other costs, you should have had a laywer look at your contract. maybe a major label would do that, but not a small independent label.


I know of two independent record labels that do this. All beside the point to this argument, really.



it's fine if bands don't tour, but don't expect to sell the amount of records like a band that tours the world will. that is just illogical.


Probably a logical conclusion. But what the fuck do expectations have to do with ethics? I know of a band that recently put up a kickstarter for some shitty demo to vinyl project. I thought "well they're crazy if they think enough people cared to pay for this now". Low and behold, they made their goal because they did have enough fans. You know what I thought to myself? "Huh. I had no idea that many people were still into this band". I certainly didn't think "HOLY SHIT! THESE IMMORAL MOTHERFUCKERS JUST FUCKED A BUNCH OF DECENT PEOPLE WITH THEIR GODDAMN SHITTY SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT!!".

like i said, if your band is your hobby, don't expect me to pay for it.


So you only buy records from professionals. That makes sense.

if your record is good enough,


I love this constant interejction of total subjectivity. From a fan of the rawest, most underground hardcore, if memory serves.

people will buy it and that can fund the next one. what is so hard about just putting it out on your own, even if you take a loss? i guess bands are afraid to find out no one gives a shit about them or only wants to hear the early stuff. maybe that is a lot for a musician to accept, i dunno.


All so very ridiculous. Whether you get payment in advance or not does not affect your total gross profit, whatever that may be. Again, I'm just loving this constant assertion that fans are getting fucked by being asked (asked, not forced) to pay for a record today instead of tomorrow.
You just keep conveniently missing how communal this is. You're exactly right, if people dig you, they will pay for a record from you. If they don't, they wont. Asking them in advance does absolutely nothing to change or alter the outcome. You can conveniently gloss over that as much as you want, but it won't be any more true. You're absolutely wrong.



a presale from a label is someone that is already established.


Says who?

having a kickstarter to fund a record that needs to be recorded is not a presale.


Sure it is.

it might get made two years down the line, if at all. i get something from a label in a few months, tops. big difference.


So again, you're problem with this is how long everything takes. That's absolutely fine and I understand that. What you're clearly wrong about, though, is that a band asking you to buy something in advance is like demanding a handout. It is not. For the 80th time.


i never said i wouldn't pay. if anything, it is the two musicians in this thread acting entitled and shocked that their fans don't want to foot the bill for them.


If a band is able to keep afloat, it's because the fans foot the bill. So I'm not sure what the fuck you're talking about.



you can blame the internet, blogs and lack of labels all you want, it doesn't mean fans should have to pay bands to tour and record.


Wait... who pays for it, then? I would really, seriously like to know. Is there some magic, government fund going around to support everyone's music careers? Seriously, hook me up with some contact info.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby James » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:35 pm

In Canada, there used to be a government funded program for artists called FACTOR. I don't think it's around anymore though.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:51 pm

okay man, like i said before, we don't have to agree, so let's end it at that. you seem you like to want to analyze every sentence i say, and i don't really have the time or the energy for that. i am talking about bands who ask for everything under the sun, not a band that wants money to put out their record, i think you are confusing the two here. i don't have a low opinion of musicians, i have lots of friends that do it, either for a living or as a hobby. either way, none of them have ever done a kickstarter, and if they asked me to contribute to it, i would tell them what i am telling you. look at red hare-there is a band that is very part time. it took them a few years to get the record out, but they did it on their own. they also strung some shows together on the east coast. all of those guys have full time jobs, but they didn't ask anyone to pay for the record or for pressing costs or studio time. they did it themselves and put out the record. i think that is how all bands should do it. they recorded it themselves and they toured on their own. maybe they took a loss, maybe they didn't. point is, they never asked for money along the way. like i said, if i like a band i support them by buying their music and seeing them if they come through my town. if their album sucked, i am not going to buy it out of loyalty. if you are an established band, you can expect a guarantee and book a tour yourself. you can print your own shirts and make 80 percent back on what you paid for it. if a label ever fucked you out of a merch sale, that sucks, but that is your fault, not mine. hell, you can even record for cheap and release your own record and press a 7 inch for a thousand bucks. you are acting like it takes thousands of dollars to put out a record and that one record that doesn't sell will destroy you financially for life. if you want to be in a position where you call the shots on everything, you really need to be in a touring band that puts out a record every couple of years. or you need to be in a band like Infest or Negative Approach that can ask for 7 thousand to play a show, but only a few bands have that luxury going for them. i know a lot of musicians, and most would seem to have a different viewpoint than you have on this. you have the right to your opinion and to think what you want, as do i, but talking about it anymore is just going to be a waste of time.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Pffft » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:19 pm

I wanna know where you can record and press a 7" for 1,000 dollars.

I also love how you're assuming that red hare wouldn't take the crowd sourcing route if it were available to them.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:28 pm

Pffft wrote:I wanna know where you can record and press a 7" for 1,000 dollars.

I also love how you're assuming that red hare wouldn't take the crowd sourcing route if it were available to them.


you can press a seven inch for 1000 bucks, last time i checked with someone who had gotten records pressed. i think rainbo in california is still around that price. didn't say that for recording too, or didn't mean to if it did.

i am assuming that about red hare because they didn't ask when they easily could have. they could have banked on using the swiz name too and i don't see them doing that either.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby SamDBL » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:42 pm

yourenotevil wrote:okay man, like i said before, we don't have to agree, so let's end it at that. you seem you like to want to analyze every sentence i say, and i don't really have the time or the energy for that. i am talking about bands who ask for everything under the sun, not a band that wants money to put out their record, i think you are confusing the two here. i don't have a low opinion of musicians, i have lots of friends that do it, either for a living or as a hobby. either way, none of them have ever done a kickstarter, and if they asked me to contribute to it, i would tell them what i am telling you. look at red hare-there is a band that is very part time. it took them a few years to get the record out, but they did it on their own. they also strung some shows together on the east coast. all of those guys have full time jobs, but they didn't ask anyone to pay for the record or for pressing costs or studio time. they did it themselves and put out the record. i think that is how all bands should do it. they recorded it themselves and they toured on their own. maybe they took a loss, maybe they didn't. point is, they never asked for money along the way. like i said, if i like a band i support them by buying their music and seeing them if they come through my town. if their album sucked, i am not going to buy it out of loyalty. if you are an established band, you can expect a guarantee and book a tour yourself. you can print your own shirts and make 80 percent back on what you paid for it. if a label ever fucked you out of a merch sale, that sucks, but that is your fault, not mine. hell, you can even record for cheap and release your own record and press a 7 inch for a thousand bucks. you are acting like it takes thousands of dollars to put out a record and that one record that doesn't sell will destroy you financially for life. if you want to be in a position where you call the shots on everything, you really need to be in a touring band that puts out a record every couple of years. or you need to be in a band like Infest or Negative Approach that can ask for 7 thousand to play a show, but only a few bands have that luxury going for them. i know a lot of musicians, and most would seem to have a different viewpoint than you have on this. you have the right to your opinion and to think what you want, as do i, but talking about it anymore is just going to be a waste of time.



I agree this is a waste of time. You just refuse to accept the fact that putting a record out and charging for it is the exact same as charging for it and then putting it out. There is no difference, ethically. Zero. Zilch. That's all there is to it. It's just ridiculous to say otherwise. Yeah, if a band chooses not to do it that way, fine. But they are not somehow superior in earnestness to those that do. Why? Because it's the exact. same. fucking. thing. This argument is so weak that you have to keep pointing out things like late delivery times and not knowing where every penny is spent, as if all of these things are somehow not existant if you buy a record from a label. In any case, I agree with you on those points to some degree. The system is fallible, no doubt. I do not agree that the idea of the whole thing (getting paid in advance for something) is morally bankrupt. It simply isn't. And your whole premise seems to keep side-stepping the fact that no one gets what they don't deserve or warrant. Fans pay if they want and don't if they don't want. It's survival of the fittest any way you slice it, which you have repeatedly spoken in favor of. There isn't some mystical pool of donors that circle these campaigns throwing money at them. Your attitude just reeks of the DIY ethos gone completely awry. No biggie. Just silly as hell.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:03 pm

SamDBL wrote:
yourenotevil wrote:okay man, like i said before, we don't have to agree, so let's end it at that. you seem you like to want to analyze every sentence i say, and i don't really have the time or the energy for that. i am talking about bands who ask for everything under the sun, not a band that wants money to put out their record, i think you are confusing the two here. i don't have a low opinion of musicians, i have lots of friends that do it, either for a living or as a hobby. either way, none of them have ever done a kickstarter, and if they asked me to contribute to it, i would tell them what i am telling you. look at red hare-there is a band that is very part time. it took them a few years to get the record out, but they did it on their own. they also strung some shows together on the east coast. all of those guys have full time jobs, but they didn't ask anyone to pay for the record or for pressing costs or studio time. they did it themselves and put out the record. i think that is how all bands should do it. they recorded it themselves and they toured on their own. maybe they took a loss, maybe they didn't. point is, they never asked for money along the way. like i said, if i like a band i support them by buying their music and seeing them if they come through my town. if their album sucked, i am not going to buy it out of loyalty. if you are an established band, you can expect a guarantee and book a tour yourself. you can print your own shirts and make 80 percent back on what you paid for it. if a label ever fucked you out of a merch sale, that sucks, but that is your fault, not mine. hell, you can even record for cheap and release your own record and press a 7 inch for a thousand bucks. you are acting like it takes thousands of dollars to put out a record and that one record that doesn't sell will destroy you financially for life. if you want to be in a position where you call the shots on everything, you really need to be in a touring band that puts out a record every couple of years. or you need to be in a band like Infest or Negative Approach that can ask for 7 thousand to play a show, but only a few bands have that luxury going for them. i know a lot of musicians, and most would seem to have a different viewpoint than you have on this. you have the right to your opinion and to think what you want, as do i, but talking about it anymore is just going to be a waste of time.



I agree this is a waste of time. You just refuse to accept the fact that putting a record out and charging for it is the exact same as charging for it and then putting it out. There is no difference, ethically. Zero. Zilch. That's all there is to it. It's just ridiculous to say otherwise. Yeah, if a band chooses not to do it that way, fine. But they are not somehow superior in earnestness to those that do. Why? Because it's the exact. same. fucking. thing. This argument is so weak that you have to keep pointing out things like late delivery times and not knowing where every penny is spent, as if all of these things are somehow not existant if you buy a record from a label. In any case, I agree with you on those points to some degree. The system is fallible, no doubt. I do not agree that the idea of the whole thing (getting paid in advance for something) is morally bankrupt. It simply isn't. And your whole premise seems to keep side-stepping the fact that no one gets what they don't deserve or warrant. Fans pay if they want and don't if they don't want. It's survival of the fittest any way you slice it, which you have repeatedly spoken in favor of. There isn't some mystical pool of donors that circle these campaigns throwing money at them. Your attitude just reeks of the DIY ethos gone completely awry. No biggie. Just silly as hell.



yeah, but i was arguing about bands asking for their fans to pay for it all, not just the recording. if a band wants to do the latter, fine, but i have brought up a fair amount of bands that don't and still make it work, so there is obviously a way to make it happen without going to kickstarter. i also never said it was morally bankrupt to do so, i just think it is lame to ask. i will always give respect to any hardcore/independent band that can make a living off of their music, whether that meant going to a major or not. i brought up SOIA about six times, so that should tell you major labels aren't a problem for me at all. again, i think you are confusing things- a band asking for 15k, gets 43k, and doesn't say where the rest of that money goes. i have a problem with that. if a band ask for me to fund their recording with the hopes that i get an album down the line, i'll pass and buy it when the thing actually comes out. i don't think most people would argue against that, you would. that's fine. i will touch upon one last thing with the record being good enough-yeah i listen to a lot of "raw hardcore" etc, but i like all kinds of bands. i think the one constant in all music is that if the songs are good, people are going to come to see you live and pay to hear your recordings. sometimes that takes work and in this day and age i think some people want to cut all of that out of the equation and use kickstarter in place of touring, doing a demo or building up a fan base on their own. i am not for that, and i have seen plenty of bands asking for money to make that happen for them.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby SamDBL » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:20 pm

yourenotevil wrote:yeah, but i was arguing about bands asking for their fans to pay for it all, not just the recording. if a band wants to do the latter, fine, but i have brought up a fair amount of bands that don't and still make it work, so there is obviously a way to make it happen without going to kickstarter.


Well so what? There are a million ways to do things. You're insinuating that one way is ethically superior to the other for some bizarre reason.

i also never said it was morally bankrupt to do so, i just think it is lame to ask.


LOL. My mistake. :roll:


i will always give respect to any hardcore/independent band that can make a living off of their music, whether that meant going to a major or not. i brought up SOIA about six times, so that should tell you major labels aren't a problem for me at all. again, i think you are confusing things- a band asking for 15k, gets 43k, and doesn't say where the rest of that money goes.


Like I've said umpteen times, there are problems with the system as of yet. I absolutely agree that things like that need to be addressed. And I totally understand why someone would not take part because of these very tangible problems. What I have issue with is someone saying the whole idea of a band saying "We want to make a record. Would anyone like to place an order now?" is begging for a handout, or panhandling or whatever.

i have a problem with that. if a band ask for me to fund their recording with the hopes that i get an album down the line, i'll pass and buy it when the thing actually comes out. i don't think most people would argue against that, you would.


I'm not arguing against your right to not pre-order. I don't care one bit whether you do, or don't. Again, you're assertion that one band is more earnest than another because they take some sort of preorder is, I think, silly. That's all.

that's fine. i will touch upon one last thing with the record being good enough-yeah i listen to a lot of "raw hardcore" etc, but i like all kinds of bands. i think the one constant in all music is that if the songs are good, people are going to come to see you live and pay to hear your recordings.


I can't tell you how many times this has been proven wrong. But in any case, if it were true, it'd only serve my point over yours. If your band is good enough, then fans will willingly give you money for promise of a future product/service. If you are not, then they won't. It should be no skin off of anyone's noses, really.


sometimes that takes work and in this day and age i think some people want to cut all of that out of the equation and use kickstarter in place of touring, doing a demo or building up a fan base on their own. i am not for that, and i have seen plenty of bands asking for money to make that happen for them.


Here's my question: Who is able to use Kickstarter with no touring and no fanbase developement, successfully? Do people just up and decide to run campaigns for $20,000 after two practices in their garage and actually get it? Again with your insinaution that people have to begrudgingly fork over money to things they don't actually have an interest in just because it's a kickstarter campaign. I just don't know how to say it so that it'll sink in. People that give you money towards a kickstarter campaign are the exact same people that would buy your demo, go to your show, buy your shirt, etc. If those people don't exist, then your campaign will not be successful. I'm sorry to inform you that there are no kickstarter money elves anonymously giving money to shit they hate.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:35 pm

"Here's my question: Who is able to use Kickstarter with no touring and no fanbase developement, successfully? Do people just up and decide to run campaigns for $20,000 after two practices in their garage and actually get it? Again with your insinaution that people have to begrudgingly fork over money to things they don't actually have an interest in just because it's a kickstarter campaign. I just don't know how to say it so that it'll sink in. People that give you money towards a kickstarter campaign are the exact same people that would buy a demo, go to a show, buy a shirt, etc. If those people don't exist, then your campaign will not be successful. I'm sorry to inform you that there are no kickstarter money elves anonymously giving money to shit they hate."

this is where i have seen bands that used to big or a solo artist who used to be in a more popular band asking people to fund their latest record that is usually not connected to their new band in anyway, or asking for money to go on tour. i think they are trying to cash in on their old glory. those guys should go out and make a name for their new band. i know one or two relatively new bands that tried to ask for a fair amount of money on kickstarter, but i don't think it was met. i can't recall the name. it was some shitty metalcore band.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby SamDBL » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:48 pm

yourenotevil wrote: this is where i have seen bands that used to big or a solo artist who used to be in a more popular band asking people to fund their latest record that is usually not connected to their new band in anyway, or asking for money to go on tour. i think they are trying to cash in on their old glory. those guys should go out and make a name for their new band.


Jesus. The more you talk about this, the less sense you make. If someone has developed fans from playing music over a long period, they don't/shouldn't just drop that fanbase when they decide to try something new. I know how incredibly earnest that would make an artist appear to a fan like yourself, but it's just not what anyone else wants. And it's not reality. And again, my god... IF THE FANS AREN'T THERE FOR YOU THEN THEY WON'T CONTRIBUTE TO A KICKSTARTER CAMPAIGN.

i know one or two relatively new bands that tried to ask for a fair amount of money on kickstarter, but i don't think it was met. i can't recall the name. it was some shitty metalcore band


Wow, no kidding? So a band that was new and didn't put in enough 'legwork' wasn't able to meet their goal on kickstarter? That's so fucking weird. It's almost like.. fuck.. I don't know.. like they didn't have enough fans to pitch in, or something. That can't be right. It almost sounds fair and somewhat just.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby gregpolard » Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:03 am

xxxHunterxxx wrote:I gave to the Dance of Days campaign because:

1) It gave me a right of first refusal for tickets to both nights of the Salad Days benefit shows at the Black Cat;
2) It came with a GI "Complete History Volume II" cd and some other stuff;
3) I think it'll be a cool movie; and
4) Scott Crawford is a good dude

I think they've pushed back the deadline for release a couple of times but they do a good job keeping people updated about what's going on. Communication seems to be the key in these things. I think people are pretty understanding about delays as long as there's not radio silence coming from the recipient of their hard-earned cash. Does Kickstarter take any sort action if the "artist" stiffs the donors? If not, that's pretty lame.


This is my biggest concern w/ Kickstarter projects is the lack of delivery. Like you said, it's one thing if you keep in touch with people and let them know what's going on, if there's a hold up on pressing, etc. But if you just keep people in the dark all while you took their money...I dunno that seems wrong to me. I have no problem w/ artists using a Kickstarter really because, like most said, it's basically a glorified pre-order.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby yourenotevil » Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:19 am

SamDBL wrote:
yourenotevil wrote: this is where i have seen bands that used to big or a solo artist who used to be in a more popular band asking people to fund their latest record that is usually not connected to their new band in anyway, or asking for money to go on tour. i think they are trying to cash in on their old glory. those guys should go out and make a name for their new band.


Jesus. The more you talk about this, the less sense you make. If someone has developed fans from playing music over a long period, they don't/shouldn't just drop that fanbase when they decide to try something new. I know how incredibly earnest that would make an artist appear to a fan like yourself, but it's just not what anyone else wants. And it's not reality. And again, my god... IF THE FANS AREN'T THERE FOR YOU THEN THEY WON'T CONTRIBUTE TO A KICKSTARTER CAMPAIGN.

i know one or two relatively new bands that tried to ask for a fair amount of money on kickstarter, but i don't think it was met. i can't recall the name. it was some shitty metalcore band


Wow, no kidding? So a band that was new and didn't put in enough 'legwork' wasn't able to meet their goal on kickstarter? That's so fucking weird. It's almost like.. fuck.. I don't know.. like they didn't have enough fans to pitch in, or something. That can't be right. It almost sounds fair and somewhat just.


http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/159 ... -musicians

here is what i am talking about, this guy wanted 50k to record an album when previously he had spent 1300 to record one. this is one of the many things i have posted, if you are actually reading them. there was a vice article about it too. you are going to keep dissecting every one of my sentences, so i am out. i already said it before,we don't agree and don't have to. if you want to keep needling away go for it, since that is obviously your style and no one is right but you. other people who posted in this thread obviously remembered who you were and chose not to defend their position with you further, for good reason.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Pffft » Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:53 am

All of his bonus gifts and pricing seem reasonable. I have no problem with that one. What you may be falling to take into account is the cost of the gifts plus the percentage that kick starter takes. I also assume this is all taxable so out of that 50k how much is actually useable?
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby yourenotevil » Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:59 am

Pffft wrote:All of his bonus gifts and pricing seem reasonable. I have no problem with that one. What you may be falling to take into account is the cost of the gifts plus the percentage that kick starter takes. I also assume this is all taxable so out of that 50k how much is actually useable?



are you just playing devil's advocate? yeah, 50k for some cheap shirts and hoodies. the rest don't cost him anything since he is prolly going to record your personal track in his home studio in about one hour, if that and put some people on the guest list. he doesn't have to do any of the traveling unless you pay for it for the really expensive ones.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby SamDBL » Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:17 am

yourenotevil wrote:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/159 ... -musicians

here is what i am talking about, this guy wanted 50k to record an album when previously he had spent 1300 to record one. this is one of the many things i have posted, if you are actually reading them. there was a vice article about it too. you are going to keep dissecting every one of my sentences, so i am out. i already said it before,we don't agree and don't have to. if you want to keep needling away go for it, since that is obviously your style and no one is right but you. other people who posted in this thread obviously remembered who you were and chose not to defend their position with you further, for good reason.


I didn't click the link, but if someone wants to ask people for a million dollars on kickstarter, so what? They won't get it if they haven't developed the fanbase to give them that. We can all laugh at their ridiculous expectations, sure. But what does that have to do with the actual system we're debating? Nothing at all. That's like someone saying the entire genre of punk sucks because Sum41 exists. Like I've said over, and over, and over, but you've been too thick to let it sink in... we're not debating whether or not kickstarter has fallibility. My only issue with what you've said is that you think it's inherently wrong, or less earnest for a band to put up a kickstarter campaign no matter what the specifics are because you think it's a fundamentally flawed idea that somehow automatically cheapens a musicians intentions. You keep bringing up structural issues, which is fine. But what I'm getting from you is that besides this, you are offended by the very notion of a band putting out a call to fans for preorders. It's idiotic. I'm dissecting every sentence you say because you keep muddying your argument with dumb shit like "Here's a link of someone asking for more money than they'll get!So there!". :lol: I think you're hilarious, dude. I don't really remember you. But I'm already positive you're one of the reasons I barely post here.
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