Kickstarter

Kickstarter

Postby Mickey » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:26 pm

Anyone a wee bit tired of this?

I get hit up at least a few times a week for someone's pet music project.

And the ones I DO pony up dough for, there's never any closure. Did the thing ever get made? At least give me a sense that you've made progress.

I wish there was some sorta way for the hat-in-hand band to indicate that they've tried other approaches, instead of starting with Kickstarter first. I would certainly be less reluctant to part with my dough if I knew they tried/struggled do it differently. I mean, not every band in the fucking world deserves to have a professional record made. You need to earn the right to go right to a plush recording studio with a highly-produced slick LP deliverable. Pay your dues, bitches -- if there's not enough in the band fund to do it yourselves, there may be a reason why.

(The above does not apply to Jeff Dean or Dave Smalley -- dudes who HAVE paid their dues!)
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Welly » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:28 pm

Mickey wrote:Anyone a wee bit tired of this?


I was tired of this shit the minute I found out about it.

You want to do something, save up. You want to make something, make it your fucking self.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby scannest » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:30 pm

Mickey wrote:(The above does not apply to Jeff Dean or Dave Smalley -- dudes who HAVE paid their dues!)

Seems to be a glaring ommission in your "exceptions" list. Is that on purpose?
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Mickey » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:56 pm

scannest wrote:
Mickey wrote:(The above does not apply to Jeff Dean or Dave Smalley -- dudes who HAVE paid their dues!)

Seems to be a glaring ommission in your "exceptions" list. Is that on purpose?
;)


Crap! Who am I missing here? Someone on this board?

There is a certain individual whose Kickstarter lots of people threw $$$ at, and hasn't shown up with like anything. But we're friends, so I'm not gonna put his name out there. But c'mon -- rock and rollers are like the most notorious flakes in the world. Do we really expect that they'll come through on these Kickstarter things? (Filmmakers seem to get to the final product, however.)
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Knutsen » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:56 pm

Welly wrote:
Mickey wrote:Anyone a wee bit tired of this?


I was tired of this shit the minute I found out about it.

You want to do something, save up. You want to make something, make it your fucking self.


This counts especially for bands. I totally agree.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Gary » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:33 pm

Knutsen wrote:
Welly wrote:
Mickey wrote:Anyone a wee bit tired of this?


I was tired of this shit the minute I found out about it.

You want to do something, save up. You want to make something, make it your fucking self.


This counts especially for bands. I totally agree.


The ratio of these things that's all "me me me !!!!!!!" to "Help me raise money to build a school or hospital for these incredibly poor people who deserve a better life" is pretty frightening.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby scannest » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:21 pm

I love that Kickstarter doesn't take down any campaigns, failed or otherwise.
I like to look at this one every few weeks. It always puts a smug smile on my face:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/512 ... ref=search
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby xxxMidgexxx » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:48 pm

No one remembered to send me $$ for my guitars and new laptop.

Reminder here. Send me stuff.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby JGJR » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:26 pm

Mickey wrote:(Filmmakers seem to get to the final product, however.)


They do indeed, but it takes them YEARS in some cases (like one I contributed to; a Graham Parker documentary). Then again, I know films obviously take much longer than records do to produce and what not.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby JGJR » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:26 pm

scannest wrote:I love that Kickstarter doesn't take down any campaigns, failed or otherwise.
I like to look at this one every few weeks. It always puts a smug smile on my face:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/512 ... ref=search


What would make me smile is a new season of Girls. :lol:
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Dinko » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:06 pm

I would have supported any "Goodbye"-song by the Gerunds. I would have paid BIG money. Just saying.

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Re: Kickstarter

Postby xxxHunterxxx » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:11 pm

Dinko wrote:I would have supported any "Goodbye"-song by the Gerunds. I would have paid BIG money. Just saying.

PS: Anyone else who can't log in hitting the "reply"-button?


PayPal me 10,000 Euros and I'll email you the Gerunds' ultra-rare cover of Goodbye Girl by Squeeze.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Dinko » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:30 pm

xxxHunterxxx wrote:
Dinko wrote:I would have supported any "Goodbye"-song by the Gerunds. I would have paid BIG money. Just saying.

PS: Anyone else who can't log in hitting the "reply"-button?


PayPal me 10,000 Euros and I'll email you the Gerunds' ultra-rare cover of Goodbye Girl by Squeeze.


If you have the patience, I'll start a Kickstarter campaign. Definitely interested. The poor kids in third world countries deserve to steal this song from torrent sites.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Pffft » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:33 pm

I have less of a problem with this than most of our generation I guess. since labels are pretty well dead a lot of younger bands don't have the option for recording that was there for the previous generations and bands that are still active now have to bankroll recording on top of the other expenses associated with trying to survive.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Dinko » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:56 pm

Toad the Wet Sprocket have started a Kickstarter campaign to promote their first record in 16 years (they have toured annually since 2006), asking for 50K within two months. They promised backers an immediate download of the new record (that they had recorded and paid for by themselves) IF and WHEN reaching that goal. It was met 2 days later and yeah, they have sent out the record to backers. Boy, they had to, as backers were immediately demanding their due. One day later, the record (supposed to hit in September, backed by Kickstarter money) was all around the web. I’m pretty sure, the Toad guys regret their semantics. And maybe their integrity, as they also had to face some troubles with the Kickstarter company itself. The campaign hasn’t ended yet, the band has not received any money, yet backers can still back off any time.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby FormerLurker » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:08 pm

Biggest scam in music in forever.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Pffft » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:55 pm

My biggest issue is with the crowd-sourcing companies making the percentages that they do.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby JGJR » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:01 pm

xxxHunterxxx wrote:Goodbye Girl by Squeeze.


I love that song (and Squeeze in general).
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby JGJR » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:02 pm

Pffft wrote:I have less of a problem with this than most of our generation I guess. since labels are pretty well dead a lot of younger bands don't have the option for recording that was there for the previous generations and bands that are still active now have to bankroll recording on top of the other expenses associated with trying to survive.


This.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby yourenotevil » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:36 pm

it's a fucking joke. I have seen people asking for money(sometimes friends of mine) for certain things and they are just making fools out of themselves.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Welly » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:48 pm

Pffft wrote:I have less of a problem with this than most of our generation I guess.


What is 'your generation'? Sorry, don't know who you are.

Pffft wrote:since labels are pretty well dead a lot of younger bands don't have the option for recording that was there for the previous generations and bands that are still active now have to bankroll recording on top of the other expenses associated with trying to survive.


I take it you were never in a band then? Because I don't know about everyone else, but we'd just pay for practice, recording and releasing stuff ourselves when we were a 'younger band' and never expected anything else. I used to sell records to pay for practice. Asking for money never came into it. It's actually cheaper now than it's ever been to record for a start, We only ever had the option of a real studio with real rates.

It sums up the instant gratification of the age. It's also simply a way of people attempting to remove the risk factor from their 'commerce'. It's a pre-sell, it's the same as phoning in your favourite act for future product. Some bands now press 'limited' amounts of their 7" and try to make it 'rare'. We'd press 500 because it was all we could afford, because we wanted as many people to listen to it as possible within our financial constraints, that was the whole point. Not the other way around. And that time, we were all unemployed.

Limited options sold as noble endeavours. We just had limited options and got on with it. People don't need Kickstarter, they need a kick up the arse.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby MXV » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:35 am

Kickstarter is the online equivalent of panhandling. Everyone starts one of those for various reasons like putting our a record, making a movie, going jogging, and taking a shit. I have never contributed to a single one and am unlikely to ever do so.

However since it seems to be all the rage I should start two kickstarters asking people to give me money to buy my girlfriend an engagement ring and to buy some expensive punk rock records that I can't afford.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Welly » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:00 am

MXV wrote:Kickstarter is the online equivalent of panhandling. Everyone starts one of those for various reasons like putting our a record, making a movie, going jogging, and taking a shit. I have never contributed to a single one and am unlikely to ever do so.

However since it seems to be all the rage I should start two kickstarters asking people to give me money to buy my girlfriend an engagement ring and to buy some expensive punk rock records that I can't afford.


And there's me thinking you had them all by panhandling to labels. :D

I chipped in once. It was a friends band trying to get their 7" out. What I paid was the equivalent of what it would've cost later to buy it anyway, so it was a pre-order, and it was next to nothing, so I saw it differently.

Did anyone see Universal Records 'Vinyl Club'? It's a crowd sourcing thing for reissuing their shit. Get on it!
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby scannest » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:38 am

There's nothing wrong with Kickstarter as an idea to fund projects that might not otherwise be completed. The only problem as I see it is people taking money for product that is not delivered as promised, or on time, or both. As far as how much money people ask for and what they offer as incentives, all I can say is you are free to not contribute. There's a singer-songwriter I really love (Tony Scalzo), but I thought his Kickstarter campaign was prohibitively expensive for what he was offering ($15 for a digital d/l and $20 for a CD? No thanks.). So I passed. I'm glad I did as the record was not completed until 2 years later.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby MXV » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:47 pm

Welly wrote:
MXV wrote:Kickstarter is the online equivalent of panhandling. Everyone starts one of those for various reasons like putting our a record, making a movie, going jogging, and taking a shit. I have never contributed to a single one and am unlikely to ever do so.

However since it seems to be all the rage I should start two kickstarters asking people to give me money to buy my girlfriend an engagement ring and to buy some expensive punk rock records that I can't afford.


And there's me thinking you had them all by panhandling to labels. :D

I chipped in once. It was a friends band trying to get their 7" out. What I paid was the equivalent of what it would've cost later to buy it anyway, so it was a pre-order, and it was next to nothing, so I saw it differently.

Did anyone see Universal Records 'Vinyl Club'? It's a crowd sourcing thing for reissuing their shit. Get on it!


I'm starting to sense a pattern here with your responses to my post talking about people giving me records.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Welly » Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:02 pm

It's a comedy theme based on the pattern of your posts over the last, er... 9 years. :D
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby MXV » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:33 pm

Welly wrote:It's a comedy theme based on the pattern of your posts over the last, er... 9 years. :D



I like to be consistent, that way people know they can always count on me. :)
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby SamDBL » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:28 pm

I think it's a pretty great system. It's another facet of big record labels getting kicked to the curb, which everyone seemed so gung ho about. Instead of artists having to find an investor (label) to put in thousands (or more) towards a project by guessing how many of the units will sell, yada yada... bands have cut out the middle man and go straight to their fans. If they have enough to support them, they put out a record. If they don't, they don't. No one is being forced to do anything. No risk for artists and no 'evil' corporations involved in the process of making music. It's just the bands and their fans calling the shots. Isn't that what everyone wanted all along? To now get pissy because a band has any form of outside investing is somewhat ridiculous. I'll never understand the bitterness towards the music industry by music fans. Some fans constantly act like they're the ones getting ripped off left and right. To the point that now we're saying that typically broke musicians should now front, collectively, millions of dollars (that gigantic labels that everyone 'hated' used to supply) based on speculation rather than the fans just telling them, directly, how many records they want? Puh-lease. It's real simple: If you like the band, you pay them for a record. If you don't, you don't. Supply and demand in it's purest and most efficient form.

Beyond just the music stuff, I really like the non-music projects on these sites as well. X-ray sunglasses, video game developement, etc. Bizarre concepts have a shot at being developed, whereas a purely financially-driven investor would never in a million years have touched them.

I get annoyed sometimes. When rich and famous celebrities (James Franco, chick from Girls) ask everyone to donate to their vanity projects so that they don't have to dip into their millions I roll my eyes. But if they've earned enough stupid fans to pay for that shit, so be it.

I also have a friend who put out a demo in the 80's. Throughout our youth, he snuck into every local show for free. He begged for (and usually got) every single tshirt and release for free. Now he has decided to put his demo on vinyl and has a campaign. It's slow going, and it looks like he's going to have to put in about half of it (the whole campaign was for a couple thousand). He's pissed that more people didn't pitch in. For some reason, he feels he's 'owed'. He's also bitter that other bands (100x bigger than his) raised more money in a shorter amount of time. As far as I'm concerned, he can get fucked. I won't donate a penny. But if he makes it, he makes it. Whatever.

I think it'll get tweaked as time goes by (delivery of goods nailed down, etc). But I think it's a tremendous step in the right direction. We collectively got the big labels out of the way, and pretty much slayed that dragon. Why in the world would we now start zoning in on artists, themselves? "Pre-order sales are tenemount to panhandling! I want to see that band risk their life savings on pressing up a bunch of discs or I won't buy!". Fuck that. I really don't think you're much of a music fan as much as a banner waver at that point. Which is something pretty typical of this genre, unfortunately.

PS This isn't directed all towards anyone, personally. I've seen a lot of folks complaining about kickstarter for various reasons.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Welly » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:45 am

SamDBL wrote:I think it's a pretty great system. It's another facet of big record labels getting kicked to the curb, which everyone seemed so gung ho about. Instead of artists having to find an investor (label) to put in thousands (or more) towards a project by guessing how many of the units will sell, yada yada... bands have cut out the middle man and go straight to their fans. If they have enough to support them, they put out a record. If they don't, they don't. No one is being forced to do anything. No risk for artists and no 'evil' corporations involved in the process of making music. It's just the bands and their fans calling the shots. Isn't that what everyone wanted all along? To now get pissy because a band has any form of outside investing is somewhat ridiculous. I'll never understand the bitterness towards the music industry by music fans. Some fans constantly act like they're the ones getting ripped off left and right. To the point that now we're saying that typically broke musicians should now front, collectively, millions of dollars (that gigantic labels that everyone 'hated' used to supply) based on speculation rather than the fans just telling them, directly, how many records they want? Puh-lease. It's real simple: If you like the band, you pay them for a record. If you don't, you don't. Supply and demand in it's purest and most efficient form.


Well my posts for one, were coming from a very different angle to this. I was talking about DIY/independent, whereas you're talking about 'fans' and labels that are clearly off any kind of radar I was referring to. You're talking about 'big record labels getting kicked to the curb', I thought this was one of the DIY ideas that came to the fore with punk, and therefore done 35+ years ago. So the battle was won then, so unless you're talking about some big mainstream star whose former major label career is now on the rocks and puts his hand out to his 'fans' for a pre-sale, I really don't get your point, sorry.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby pedro » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:40 am

I am thinking about starting a Kickstarter campaign for tomorrow's lunch. I don't think I'll need more than $7 (I have a coupon for Baja Fresh) so it shouldn't be that difficult. I'll keep you updated on the campaign.
Last edited by pedro on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby gregpolard » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:43 am

pedro wrote:I am thinking about starting a Kickstarter campaign for tomorrow's lunch. I don't think I'll need more than $ 7 (I have a coupon for Baja Fresh) so it shouldn't be that difficult. I'll keep you updated on the campaign.


All the Baja Fresh's around me closed down. Kinda bummed. Always enjoyed their salsa bar.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Welly » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:53 am

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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Knutsen » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:40 pm

Welly wrote:I take it you were never in a band then? Because I don't know about everyone else, but we'd just pay for practice, recording and releasing stuff ourselves when we were a 'younger band' and never expected anything else. I used to sell records to pay for practice. Asking for money never came into it. It's actually cheaper now than it's ever been to record for a start, We only ever had the option of a real studio with real rates.

It sums up the instant gratification of the age. It's also simply a way of people attempting to remove the risk factor from their 'commerce'. It's a pre-sell, it's the same as phoning in your favourite act for future product. Some bands now press 'limited' amounts of their 7" and try to make it 'rare'. We'd press 500 because it was all we could afford, because we wanted as many people to listen to it as possible within our financial constraints, that was the whole point. Not the other way around. And that time, we were all unemployed.

Limited options sold as noble endeavours. We just had limited options and got on with it. People don't need Kickstarter, they need a kick up the arse.


I totally agree.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby SamDBL » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:09 pm

Welly wrote:Well my posts for one, were coming from a very different angle to this. I was talking about DIY/independent, whereas you're talking about 'fans' and labels that are clearly off any kind of radar I was referring to. You're talking about 'big record labels getting kicked to the curb', I thought this was one of the DIY ideas that came to the fore with punk, and therefore done 35+ years ago. So the battle was won then, so unless you're talking about some big mainstream star whose former major label career is now on the rocks and puts his hand out to his 'fans' for a pre-sale, I really don't get your point, sorry.


I fail to see the difference, or even the relation, of whether a band is DIY and whether they have fans. Minor Threat were DIY, imo. And they had plenty of fans. In fact, throughout the years I've known plenty of local bands that never made it outside of their cities that had lots of fans. I also think that a band going directly to their fans for presales and then producing/manufacturing the release themselves is every bit as DIY as asking thier parents or squirreling away money from playing shows. The only difference is there's less risk involved because it's spread out over more (willing) people and there is less guess work as to how many people actually want this thing you're putting out. I know the punk ethos is for everything to be back-breakingly difficult and done at a loss in order to be deemed earnest and sincere... but kickstarter just makes perfect sense to me.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby SamDBL » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:12 pm

SamDBL wrote:
Welly wrote:Well my posts for one, were coming from a very different angle to this. I was talking about DIY/independent, whereas you're talking about 'fans' and labels that are clearly off any kind of radar I was referring to. You're talking about 'big record labels getting kicked to the curb', I thought this was one of the DIY ideas that came to the fore with punk, and therefore done 35+ years ago. So the battle was won then, so unless you're talking about some big mainstream star whose former major label career is now on the rocks and puts his hand out to his 'fans' for a pre-sale, I really don't get your point, sorry.


I fail to see the difference, or even the relation, of whether a band is DIY and whether they have fans. Minor Threat were DIY, imo. And they had plenty of fans. In fact, throughout the years I've known plenty of local bands that never made it outside of their cities that had lots of fans. I also think that a band going directly to their fans for presales and then producing/manufacturing the release themselves is every bit as DIY as asking thier parents or squirreling away money from playing shows. The only difference is there's less risk involved because it's spread out over more (willing) people and there is less guess work as to how many people actually want this thing you're putting out. People act like this method of selling records is 'asking for money' or 'begging'. How ridiculous. An item is being bought. If I buy a video game presale, does that mean the video game company is taking a donation? I know the punk ethos is for everything to be back-breakingly difficult and done at a loss in order to be deemed earnest and sincere... but kickstarter just makes perfect sense to me.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby the mean » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:25 pm

Welly's on point here. Kickstarter may work for a film or something prohibitively expensive, but if you or your band can't raise the money to release your own record, or can't find a label to do it, than I am just fine with you not having a record out. Fuck if I'm going to pay for it.

And I sure as hell am not going to pay for a record before it is even made. Then the artist can flake, bail, say "it's coming soon" over and over again, without ever having to deliver anything. Have people got their Dave Smalley CDs yet, with an estimated release date of February, 2012? That worked out well. [deleted shit to be nice.]

I won't buy any music that is kickstartered. Save up your money and release your own record. If it's good, I will buy it.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Welly » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:51 pm

SamDBL wrote:
Welly wrote:Well my posts for one, were coming from a very different angle to this. I was talking about DIY/independent, whereas you're talking about 'fans' and labels that are clearly off any kind of radar I was referring to. You're talking about 'big record labels getting kicked to the curb', I thought this was one of the DIY ideas that came to the fore with punk, and therefore done 35+ years ago. So the battle was won then, so unless you're talking about some big mainstream star whose former major label career is now on the rocks and puts his hand out to his 'fans' for a pre-sale, I really don't get your point, sorry.


I fail to see the difference, or even the relation, of whether a band is DIY and whether they have fans. Minor Threat were DIY, imo. And they had plenty of fans. In fact, throughout the years I've known plenty of local bands that never made it outside of their cities that had lots of fans. I also think that a band going directly to their fans for presales and then producing/manufacturing the release themselves is every bit as DIY as asking thier parents or squirreling away money from playing shows. The only difference is there's less risk involved because it's spread out over more (willing) people and there is less guess work as to how many people actually want this thing you're putting out. I know the punk ethos is for everything to be back-breakingly difficult and done at a loss in order to be deemed earnest and sincere... but kickstarter just makes perfect sense to me.


Hey man, you seem to be missing my point. It's all good, Kickstarter is doing just fine without my back-breakingly difficult banner waving punk ethos typical of this genre.

See, to scar mangled banner wavers like me, symptoms of the internet such as Kickstarter are precisely ome of the main reasons that a lot of music has lost its bite. Why bands and their records generally don't seem to be as memorable or as focused these days, and why people look more and more to the bands of old. The back-breakingly difficult, for bands like Black Flag, was part of their modus operandi. Dirty, broke and half starved, and the music reflected this. Now we have a lot of entitlement, and the motivation for making music has changed for a lot of bands with the influx of money and its influence. To me that's why bands from parts of the world in the old days that had less major label interest, seemed to make better music, and the ones with the most money, waned. To be blatantly obvious, look at the difference between say how music changed in New York and Los Angeles output following the early years of punk.

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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Pffft » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:19 am

I'm in my early 40s and was in a band that went on to moderate success after I left (eventually on Atlantic). My thought wasn't too major labels but smaller ones that have fallen by the wayside. Do you think half of the 80s and 90s albums that you love that were released by indie labels (headhunter cz dischord) even get made if there wasn't label support to pay for the costs?

My current band just finished recording an e.p and it's all out of pocket but we're older and have established incomes...and it's a guaranteed net loss. my kid's band couldn't do that without some kind of crowd sourcing and I'm sure that they have way more upside because of their ages and skill sets.
"Hey we're seeing if there's enough interest to record" isn't entitlement.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Pffft » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:28 am

I also love the jump to wild conclusions based on one post thing that message boards create.

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Re: Kickstarter

Postby SamDBL » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:29 am

I don't think a band's financial sourcing affects the way they sound in this case. Or rather, I don't think there's a difference between a band's fans paying for a record before, or after it's manufactured in terms of artistic integrity. Imo, Black Flag's sound had nothing to do with what time frame their fans purchased their records. Like I said, I simply think a Kickstarter campaign fits perfectly into the DIY ethic. It doesn't provide more or easier money as it's the same people that'd be buying the record later on down the line. It's just a way to organize the financing in a way that keeps labels (and whatever influence they are perceived to have) out of the picture, while helping the artist get done what needs to get done with the direct involvement of fans. And I certainly don't believe a hardcore band is going to sound harder just because they have to get a job at a gas station to pay for their band's record.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby JGJR » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:41 am

SamDBL wrote:I don't think a band's financial sourcing affects the way they sound in this case. Or rather, I don't think there's a difference between a band's fans paying for a record before, or after it's manufactured in terms of artistic integrity. Imo, Black Flag's sound had nothing to do with what time frame their fans purchased their records. Like I said, I simply think a Kickstarter campaign fits perfectly into the DIY ethic. It doesn't provide more or easier money as it's the same people that'd be buying the record later on down the line. It's just a way to organize the financing in a way that keeps labels (and whatever influence they are perceived to have) out of the picture, while helping the artist get done what needs to get done with the direct involvement of fans. And I certainly don't believe a hardcore band is going to sound harder just because they have to get a job at a gas station to pay for their band's record.


I agree with most of the stuff you wrote, but one thing that no one has mentioned is that had things like Kickstarter, PledgeMusic, etc. existed back in Black Flag's heyday, bands from that time period sure as heck would've used them (at least that's what I think).

Back in the day, we dreamed of being able to access so much music all at once (or at least I did), so anti-Kickstarter argument (and by extension, arguments against new ways of hearing and funding music) arguments (though I think there is some truth to them) often miss that.

I'm not saying there are no downsides (some of what Welly mentioned is kind of true, I think, but then I think maybe it's because we're all older, have more responsibilities now, etc. just as the amount of music we CAN hear is staggering).
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:43 am

to me, punk rock or independent music was never supposed to be viewed as a profit margin or recouping your losses. when i did a zine, we charged one dollar for an issue, and two bucks if it went in the mail(that was in 95). right there, i am sure were taking at least a few dollars loss an issue since kinko's was the only game in town back then. you did it because you liked it and had fun and got to meet and interview the bands you liked and correspond with other people who did zines. when my friends tour in a van and play some house show, they are not making a lot of money off of it. they do it to have a good time. if you are good enough, a label will come calling. or if you really put all of the money you made from shows into a recording, you can release a record yourself. i think it comes down to the fact that older guys in bands don't want to tour(whether it is due to jobs, time, whatever the reason), and if they were in band people used to care about, they think they can ask the public to foot the bill for them. it is fucking lame beyond belief. hardcore is a young man's game, but don't think you can claim an OG tag and ask someone to pay your way for you. if you don't like it, learn some fucking skynyrd covers and start a bar band, at least you will make your money than you ever did playing in a punk band. and if you think all old guys just rest on their laurels, look at SOIA-they have been constantly recording and touring since 1987 and made it into a living for themselves. even lemmy tours 7 or 8 months out of the year. if you don't want music to be a full time gig and pay your bills, you can't come begging for others to make up your losses for you.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby SamDBL » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:58 am

Utterly ridiculous. Yes, enthusiasm is supposed to be the motivater for this kind of stuff. But that does not mean you have to take a loss at everything you do. The whole ethos of DIY is in place so that you don't have to beg a label to pay for everything and you didn't have their influence in your music and that you are calling all of the shots (ie. enjoying your music rather than playing strictly for some financer's wallet). That's it. Nothing about that says you personally have to lose money every time you do something. If you make enough of a fanbase on your own terms and are organized enough that a profit shows, then you are clearly still doing, artistically, what you set out to do. How silly to suggest that if you're not losing money, you're not doing it right.
Saying 'if you're good enough, a label will pick you up' pretty much contridicts every other fucking word you wrote. All of the sudden we're telling bands to 'get good enough for a label to pay for your record or shut up'. Wow. Mighty 'punk' of you.
And the whole thing about non-touring bands asking for handouts, etc. THEY ARE SELLING A PRODUCT. THEY ARE NOT GETTING FREE DONATIONS. What the fuck is so hard to understand about that? Lastly, your assertion that playing a certain kind of music is 'a young man's game' is ageist, and borderline offensive.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:19 am

SamDBL wrote:Utterly ridiculous. Yes, enthusiasm is supposed to be the motivater for this kind of stuff. But that does not mean you have to take a loss at everything you do. The whole ethos of DIY is in place so that you don't have to beg a label to pay for everything and you didn't have their influence in your music and that you are calling all of the shots (ie. enjoying your music rather than playing strictly for some financer's wallet). That's it. Nothing about that says you personally have to lose money every time you do something. If you make enough of a fanbase on your own terms and are organized enough that a profit shows, then you are clearly still doing, artistically, what you set out to do. How silly to suggest that if you're not losing money, you're not doing it right.
Saying 'if you're good enough, a label will pick you up' pretty much contridicts every other fucking word you wrote. All of the sudden we're telling bands to 'get good enough for a label to pay for your record or shut up'. Wow. Mighty 'punk' of you.
And the whole thing about non-touring bands asking for handouts, etc. THEY ARE SELLING A PRODUCT. THEY ARE NOT GETTING FREE DONATIONS. What the fuck is so hard to understand about that? Lastly, your assertion that playing a certain kind of music is 'a young man's game' is ageist, and borderline offensive.



read what i wrote- i am not saying punk means you have to take a loss, but you can't do it half assed. you either just do it for fun play a show on the weekend or whenever your schedule allows it, or you do it full time like SOIA. save the money you make from shows and pay for studio time(or do it for cheap on a computer). then put out your own record if no one is interested in putting it out for you. yeah, if you are a good band that draws crowds or has good songs, a label is going to be interested in putting out your record. if you don't tour, they are never going to move anything you put out, so why should they put out your record then? i find that older guys don't want to tour, but they tend to be the ones asking for money to pay for a recording or for letting them tour on a bus or something. you can't have it both ways. SOIA tours on a bus, but they earned it by touring and releasing an album every year or two. i have friends who put on shows and all of these over the hill hardcore bands want 5000 bucks to play one show, plane tickets for 5 guys, hotel rooms and they want the promoter to drive their ass around for the two or three days they are in town. they get insulted if you try to lower their price. they get insulted if you want the hometown band that is actually going to be bringing in the crowd at the show to headline the show. i am not going to name names, but you would surprised what some guy in NYC thinks his band can draw in Los Angeles when his band's records have been out of print for 20 or more years, or what he thinks he deserves to make for playing one show. that is a separate thing from the kickstarter thing, but i have seen some crossover in the sense of entitlement those people tend to have.

i bring up hardcore being a young man's game because it is. double negative was full of older guys and they released records and toured and to my knowledge never charged 10 bucks for a seven inch or had a kickstarter to fund their next recording. that shit is lame, at least to me. you are playing in a scene where young kids go on tour and put out their own records and make a name or themselves. if you can't hack it, don't do it. it's that simple. i totally get being over the age of 30 and having a family and a job and not being able to go out the road, but don't expect me to fund your project if you can't come up with the money on your own to record. i don't care if someone is doing a pre order and promising you a copy of the album IF the project gets funded, that is bullshit. i would only pay for a pre order from a label because i know i will get it in a few months. it doesn't hinge on people having to actually fund it. another reason i do not like kickstarter is that there is no accounting for where my money goes. i have seen people asking 25k to press a record, when it costs nowhere near that. i think it's lame, you don't, but we don't have to agree either.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Pffft » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:39 am

Most of the labels are dead... so that's no longer an option
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby SamDBL » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:40 am

I still think you don't get it. You seem to have an axe to grind with punk bands that charge too much or ask for too much or whatever. This really has nothing to do with any of that that. You also seem to be really stuck on the idea that contributing to a kickstarter campaign is the same as donating money to a charity, which is also completely off the mark. A product is being sold. For you to be 'insulted' that a band is giving you the chance to buy (or not) their product online is just silly. Because that's exactly what's happening here. The only things I agree with that you said is that, because the artist is in charge of everything (ie. DIY venture), it's probable that stuff isn't going to happen in the most timely or organized fashion as it would if a dedicated label with some sort of staff were in charge. But this is no different than any other time someone puts out their own record. Expect delays, set backs, etc. But these are things that could all be worked out and tweaked within the system as time goes by.

Hardcore being a young man's game is only the case with your nutty standards. Like a band simply has no right to exist if they don't tour constantly. Whatever. It's the same fucking difference. If a band puts out a call to see who's interested in buying their next record, they've either garnered the support to make it happen or it'll fail. It's the same as every other venture a band sets out on. I just don't see what's so offensive about that. I don't know about you, but I'm actually bummed when a band like Double Negative breaks up. I thought they were quite good. I'd be happy to give them an undeserved handout (ie. Buy their next record) if they decided to give me the chance to do so.

If you see buying a presale product directly from the band the same as giving them a free handout, there's not much more I can say to you about it except I think you're being completely illogical. I can only assume people get irked by this notion because their punk background has trained them to rail against anything that makes life for an artist any easier or makes any financial sense. And I'm totally not saying that sarcastically.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby SamDBL » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:42 am

Pffft wrote:Most of the labels are dead... so that's no longer an option


That's the irony of this whole thing. I remember everyone bitching about 'selling out' if some band signed to a label. Now you're selling out if you don't finance everything yourself, go broke, and then break up and stop playing music all together by the time you're 30.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Pffft » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:45 am

So I'm confused.. who's entitled? Kids or older musicians? Or everyone? Or maybe the game has changed and you can't get tour support from cargo records and can't really manage to drive to every little crappy town to flog the album you paid to press (that someone ripped and put up on their blog for free anyway)... I also used to book a venue and really feel empathy for bands trying to make it now. There is such a crush of bands out there and traditional promotions no longer really work. You can't just print a tin of flyers and put them in the local record store and let excitement build that way.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby yourenotevil » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:02 am

SamDBL wrote:
Pffft wrote:Most of the labels are dead... so that's no longer an option


That's the irony of this whole thing. I remember everyone bitching about 'selling out' if some band signed to a label. Now you're selling out if you don't finance everything yourself, go broke, and then break up and stop playing music all together by the time you're 30.



again, i don't think you're getting what i am saying. i never used the phrase "sell out." i brought up SOIA, who actually got shit for being on a major. i am saying, either you are a full time or you are not. if you are not, you can't expect the reap the benefits of said touring band-a tour bus, hotel rooms, nice meals, etc. i have seen plenty of people(punk and not) asking for funds to do this. one band wanted 50k to tour. i don't think a fan should have to pay that. i don't think a fan should have to pay for a recording, studio time, practice time or the actual cost of what it takes to make a record(which is what welly was pretty much saying). either you do it yourself, or you don't. i rarely see a band saying they have recorded and are asking for the money to press the record. even then, i wouldn't give them money. i don't want to wait a year or two to get my record, if ever, sorry. yeah, labels will still be willing to put up the cost of what it takes to record or press your record(sometimes it is one or the other) if you TOUR. that is how it's always been. if you don't want to do a full tour, don't expect a label to press your lp and don't expect your fans to pay for it either. i don't think that is illogical at all. i can name you plenty of bands and labels who press records for fair prices and don't ask for handouts. i agree with welly, i think people have a sense of entitlement now instead of being willing to put in the leg work themselves.
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Re: Kickstarter

Postby Pffft » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:06 am

It's funny how entitled you sound making those arguments
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